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Post by redknight on May 31, 2018 2:15:28 GMT
There we go, Blood Knights.
Badass vampires with awesome fluff and one of the most powerful cavalry units in 8th edition.
They are expensive as hell and as soon as you put them on the battlefield, they become a super magnet for enemy fire and magic, which makes it very difficult to even get them in combat before they're all dead. Being Vampiric, they can recover only 1 wound for the whole unit per casting of invocation of nehek, which makes me want to put them in the center, surrounded by at least 3 casters to spam the spell if needed to be able to bring at least one or two back each turn.
At 50pts a model, how to make these guys work ? If I take a unit of 4 or 5, and add a magic banner, they go (very quickly) above 300pts. Now I am even planning to add my mounted blood dragon lord in there (because it's really cool and I like the idea of my lord rolling with his blood knights bodyguards).
So let's say 4 blood knights (which is the minimum number you can take), and my mounted blender vampire lord. This unit would be around 600pts. That's A LOT.
If they get in combat, they can murder pretty much everything. But are they really gonna get there ? And even if they do, they have to kill at least 600pts of enemy models to become cost-effective.
Is it too silly to take such a unit ? Or is there a way to make it work ?
I REALLY love the idea, and I want to play them this way.
But if I'm just gonna sink 600pts for nothing, then it's very sad.
Any experience playing them or ideas or remarks are welcome.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on May 31, 2018 2:39:24 GMT
I recently took 2 units of blood knights (4 and 5) in a big game. Unfortunately they were on opposite flanks and got smeared by Bretonnian impact hits. I failed 2 charges that needed a seven or so, the knights of the realm and grail knights tore them up.
I’d do it again though as they look totally awesome. Your idea of a middle unit supported by casters is what I’m going to try.
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Post by mottdon on May 31, 2018 12:48:08 GMT
VC is one of the few armies I don't have right now. (That may change one day...) But I have played them rather frequently, and every time I've seen Blood Knights taken, it has always been in units of around 8. Usually with a Vampire and Wright King. And I have to say, I've only ever seen them fail once (they were bombarded by a ton of war machines - even then I seem to recall the Vamp and WK surviving the game), but not before they inflicted a HEAVY casualty toll.
Personally, if I were to take an expensive unit like that, I'd pour quite a few points into it and make it hard as heck.
Now, I don't know if they are as good as Dragon Princes, Cold One Knights, or Cold One Riders, regardless, they are good when given a chance. They force your opponent into a choice. "Do I throw everything I have at them and hopefully garner all those points, or try to chaff and avoid them all game (not an easy thing to do given their high offensiveness and maneuverability). They are definitely better than Black Knights, IMHO. I've seen those guys go down so easily so many times.
And if you stick a Vamp and WK in with them, then you start to gain a lot of customization for the unit.
That's my take on them.
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Post by sedge on May 31, 2018 13:20:05 GMT
I almost always field 5 of them with full command and my Vampire Lord blender + caster general - that's primarily because a) that's all the Blood Knights I have, b) they're really cool, and c) I have a converted Vampire Lord I like to use.
Given their points cost and relatively low leadership, you can't let their Frenzy drag them across the table - they really need a BSB or general preferably in or at least near the unit. The banner we discussed elsewhere, but you can't afford to have Blood Knights going down before they reach combat, and it's crucial to achieving that. Those are the two essentials as far as I'm concerned.
They've generally done well for me, though I have abandoned tactics in the past to throw them into a tricky combat they might struggle to win (a massive horde of Swordmasters + characters) - because that's what Blood Dragons are about.
Finally, people still field Vampire Lords on zombie dragons - if you can justify the points for that, you can do so for a similarly-priced entourage of Blood Knights.
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Post by Naitsabes on May 31, 2018 17:06:38 GMT
As an Empire player, I haven't seen them in a game in ages...which is a shame, they look great.
I think they have two issues, which are sort of intertwined:
-low numbers so not unlikely to drop below 5 rank-n-file and then open yourself up to cannon sniping the characters -frenzy. That means forced overruns which can leave you out in the open to be shot at or worst case set that unit up for one of the juiciest cannon flank shots in the game
I wonder if there are magic items to somewhat help that situation? Also, think about what you can do with the rest of your list to make them work.
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Post by mottdon on May 31, 2018 18:05:40 GMT
Lets see...the rest of a VC army....there are Terrorgheist...Grave Guard...Black Coach.......................pretty much everything else is chaff!
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Post by sedge on May 31, 2018 18:42:30 GMT
Black Knights, Varghulfs, Vargheists are all hammers, plus Crypt Horrors if you put the points into them. And anything that has a Vampire Lord/Strigoi Ghoul King in or on it.
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Post by redknight on Jun 1, 2018 1:49:31 GMT
Modtton:
Nice, I like your idea of really going for it with a bigger unit. I might try it. Do you think it could work in a 2500pts game ?
Naitsabes:
I am not afraid about Frenzy, as I would put a Vampire lord inside (LD10), you have to get really bad rolls to fail that Frenzy test. I can also keep a BSB nearby.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jun 1, 2018 2:42:39 GMT
Naitsabes: I am not afraid about Frenzy, as I would put a Vampire lord inside (LD10), you have to get really bad rolls to fail that Frenzy test. I can also keep a BSB nearby. it's not about the frenzy test. What your opponent will try and do is shove a cheap unit in front of your blood knights. you can then either not charge (yes, you should pass that on re-rollable Ld10) and not go anywhere or you can charge and wipe out that pesky unit. But, then you are forced to overrun due to frenzy (a regular unit can instead reform) and it it will happen at an angle that your opponent chose when he placed the pesky little unit. now you are stranded in a bad place, forced to spend your next turn reforming to get back into the game. all the while getting shot, like I said, worst case down your flank by a cannon.
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Post by redknight on Jun 1, 2018 3:46:32 GMT
Naitsabes: I am not afraid about Frenzy, as I would put a Vampire lord inside (LD10), you have to get really bad rolls to fail that Frenzy test. I can also keep a BSB nearby. it's not about the frenzy test. What your opponent will try and do is shove a cheap unit in front of your blood knights. you can then either not charge (yes, you should pass that on re-rollable Ld10) and not go anywhere or you can charge and wipe out that pesky unit. But, then you are forced to overrun due to frenzy (a regular unit can instead reform) and it it will happen at an angle that your opponent chose when he placed the pesky little unit. now you are stranded in a bad place, forced to spend your next turn reforming to get back into the game. all the while getting shot, like I said, worst case down your flank by a cannon. I get it, thanks for the precisions. Well that is indeed bad. But I guess we could find solutions to avoid such situations. For me, the good thing is that we don't allow cannons in our games in my group, they are just overpowered snipers in 8th edition, so at least I don't have to worry about that ! ^^
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Post by mottdon on Jun 1, 2018 12:28:45 GMT
Yeah, the Frenzy thing is a concern. They only thing I can say about that is counter with your own chaff - which VC have in droves! All types too. Bat Swarms and Fell Bats work great for getting them where you need them, quickly. Even Dire Wolves are fast. The best thing about them? They can be raised back if not completely wiped out. So I'd suggest countering chaff with chaff. That might even be an interesting mini-game match within the larger game! Who's chaff is better?
Anyway, if your opponent has so much chaff to block you all game long, then do the same to him. Raise dead is great for this too because it's not coming out of your point allotment. Eventually, they'll run out of chaff, and you can always bring more. Blockade his big nasty unit and win the chaff war.
That being said, you'll need to seriously invest in some casters and augmenting stuff like a Mortis Engine (or two). Spam low-level casters and have them all take the sig spell. Try to ensure that your Lv4 gets Raise Dead and, with a Mortis Engine nearby with the Blasphemous Tome, start throwing out 1-dice Invocation. Your opponent won't be able to stop 5-6 casters. That'll also help your Blood Knights, should you take any wounds.
This strategy will only work in a 3000+ point list though. The Mortis Engine (with Blasphemous Tome) + 8 Blood Knights(Standard and Musician) with the Flag of Blood Keep will take up 735 points. That's almost all of a 3000 pt 25% allotment. If you leave off the Mortis Engine, then yes, you can still take the Blood Knights, but not really anything else (from Rare - maybe a Cairn Wraith).
You can also still put a big block of Grave Guard in there as well, if things were to take an ill turn for your knights. Having two heavy hitters in an army is quite nasty.
It might not be an "optimal" build, but sure does sound fun and might be worth a try at least!
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Post by knoffles on Jun 2, 2018 12:16:34 GMT
Bluke was telling me a little trick someone used at the hockley tourney he went to recently. It related to a mino-bus but the principle applies for any frenzy unit. The chap was moving his mino-bus in conjunction with some chaff. When the opponent blocked the bus with his own chaff at an angle, he was able to charge the enemy chaff and because his own chaff was stopping his own unit closing the door (as it was effectively railroading his own unit), his opponent had to close the door. He was able to use this to dictate the direction of his over-run. Ok so it’s a bit circumstantial and requires some work to pull off but thought it was an interesting use of chaff.
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Post by redknight on Jun 2, 2018 13:03:02 GMT
Well I have listened to your advices and I made a list including a unit of 7 blood knights, with a mounted vampire lord, a mounted vampire (hero) and a wight king. That’s a mean unit. I then added two blocks of 10 dire wolves that I will use as counter chaff. If I move them together with the blood knights, they should be able to clean some of the opponent annoyances. I’ll give it a shot in a future game and we’ll see how it goes !
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Post by mottdon on Jun 2, 2018 15:23:29 GMT
Sounds awesome. I look forward to seeing how they do! Make sure you take plenty of pics!
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jun 2, 2018 23:23:29 GMT
Six of one half a dozen of the other, all good points raised above.
They can march outside the generals bubble but as stated need to be close to casters to get wounds back. They hit like a train but can be diverted off. Shooting at them means the enemy isn't shooting at other stuff.
Personally I like the unit and something I intend to do is make a VC army, I sold my metal models (I regret that!) but now will use converted Bret models.
Thing is, as said before are they a game winner or just chaff? Too expensive for random chaff so they must do something in the game, I wouldn't worry about a few hundred points in a unit though, whilst I like the idea of putting the lord in here I think that it makes it the obvious target while if you have the lord else where your opponent has to a least think which unit they're gonna shoot.
Can't find the link to the post on this site but some beautiful painted Bret models as VC.
Greg
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