Post by strutsagget on Jul 28, 2018 18:08:10 GMT
This post is an amalgamation of the thread of the same name from the Chaos Dwarf Online forum.
I have added the first impression of the comments I thought added value
Strutsagget
FAQ & ERRATA UPDATE:
ERRATA
Page 184 and 185: Replace the Blazing Body rules text with the following:
‘Any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more Bale Taurus or K’daai, except a Chaos Dwarf using it as a mount or another K’daai, takes an automatic Strength 4 hit at the start of the Close Combat phase. This is a Flaming attack.
Additionally, any non-Magical attacks must re-roll successful To Wound rolls.’
FAQ
Q. Do I roll for the K’daai ‘Burning Bright’ rule at the start of each player turn? A. No, the test is made at the start of each game turn from turn 2 onwards, and is made by the Chaos Dwarf player.
Q. K’Daai are considered as Daemons for the purposes of spells & effects. Does this imply that K’Daai attacks count as Magical?
A. The K’Daai do not have Magical attacks. The reason for this is that binding them into their iron bodies renders them ‘mundane’; their magical essence is trapped within the metal shell.
The Daemonsmith's Handbook - K'daai Fireborn
Thread creator: Nicodemus - Oct 2012
The K'daai Fireborn were so fantastic in my first and second game that I decided as soon as game 2 was done I needed to have a second unit of them to add to my army - they're that good. One of my opponents (a veteran Warhammer Fantasy player who was playing Tomb Kings that game) couldn't believe how good they were, and his remark was that they would still be a bargain at twice the price. Maybe not literally, but this is a good mindset to keep when making your army list. Unless you're planning for a specific tactic or scenario, K'daai Fireborn should be one of your staple units.
Of course keep in mind that if you want to get the most bang for your buck, steer clear of units and characters with magical weapons. As per FW's latest FAQ, hits from non-magical weapons must re-roll successful Wounds, it's a shame to lose that massive perk by putting these guys up against Chaos Knights with their Ensorcelled weapons. And along this same line of thinking, maintaining the unit's Stomp and Fear special rules are very important, so keep this in mind if you have to choose between regular infantry vs. Monsters or Monstrous Infantry and the like. The K'daai will never break, but you're penalized big time (take Wounds) if they lose combat, and once a unit of K'daai Fireborn start to waiver, if they can't turn the tide of the battle, they'll be gone quickly.
Because K'daai Fireborn can potentially burn themselves out after Game Turn 2 you also need to be thinking about getting them into combat ASAP while they're still at 100% effectiveness (in terms of the points you spent). If they're not getting into combat until turn 3 or 4 there's a chance you could already be down a model or two - which comes back around to their effectiveness in battle, as soon as you start losing K'daai and the unit begins to underperform (i.e. lose combat) they'll burn out all the quicker.
I've been running my K'daai Fireborn, with a Manburner for the extra attack, 3-wide and in two ranks, this way I get the supporting attacks from the second rank. The fact that they're a Special choice is fantastic as I'm always tempted to spend a few more points on a unit of K'daai. As I only have one unit at present I don't have any tactics or input on running multiples... except that, like I said above, after my first two games I was sold on having another unit of them. At least with two units it's harder for your opponent to evade a unit of K'daai Wink
One last thought here too which occurred to me last game - Although the K'daai are amazing and can really dish out the pain (Fear, automatic flaming hits at the start of combat, their regular attacks, plus the stomp at the end, then forcing opponents to re-roll Wounds, followed by a 4+ AS...) you may want to keep in mind just how many points you're putting into your K'daai, and also how you're going to use them. Sure they may be able to wipe out a unit or two after several turns, but by the end of a 6 turn game, they could easily be gone themselves, even if they were never in combat. Either by being dealt Wounds by foes, burning themselves out at the start of each turn, or losing combat, your unit has a lot of ways to be removed from the table even if they do nothing - and these could be valueable game-winning points you relinquish to your opponent simply by dint of the fact that the K'daai are designed in their core rules to only be a temporary unit. Buyer beware!
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare sieze the fire?
What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
Excerpts from "Tyger! Tyger! burning bright" - Blake
---
I’ve used Fireborn in every game I’ve played since buying some and found them exceptionally effective.
In general I tend towards the smaller game (1000 points) so at the moment I run a unit of 3 with a Manburner though I intend on getting another three on my next visit to Warhammer World in a couple of weeks to bolster this unit up to 6 and make them more survivable.
I concur with Nicodemus (especially with a smaller unit) getting them into combat as soon as humanly possible is vital, preferably against T3 troops where the ST4 auto hit thanks to the Blazing Body rule can really do a lot of damage. The strength 5 combat hits are also pretty handy and with a WS 4 it’s going to be a rare opponent where you’re hitting on 4s or better followed by a flaming hit that will negate heavy armour.
I have found over a few games they are pretty good at taking down small elite units (Swordmasters, Black Guard etc.) the Auto hits can with a bit of luck decimate a rank before any blows are struck and the re-rolling any wounds caused is pretty useful even against reasonably high strength attacks.
My own tactic, such as it is, is to try to leave them until last during deployment and line them up against whatever looks a juicy target as far forward as the deployment type allows and go for it. It’s not much of a tactic I admit but so far it’s proved pretty effective but if they’re not in combat by the beginning of the second turn then they can start losing wounds due to the burning bright rule and then loose combat effectiveness.
Despite losing the stomp attack they can also be pretty good at taking down small units of cavalry. The combination of auto hits at the start of the combat, the decent toughness, forcing the reroll of successful wounds and the ward save has meant they’ve comfortably survived the charge of a unit of cold one knights and then done serious damage in return.
I know they’re an expensive unit and the risk of them burning out is fairly high (especially on a small unit) but on balance I think they are one of the “don’t leave home without them” units for the Legion of Azgorh.
Cheers
Vogon
---
I've used them quite some games too, always in a unit of 6 as you take quite some damage from Burning Bright (the T test you have to start making from turn 2 onwards).
I'm not overly fond of them, against some opponents (maintl S3/T3 troops) they are awesome, but they still also have the Unstable rule so that even if they stay in combat because Unbreakable they lose extra wounds because of combat difference. And as they are only W2 each that doenst leave you with a lot of leftovers at the end of a game.
Because of all this taking, a unit smaller than 6 is just a too big of a gamble.
But they are a friendly option over the way more effective Kadaai Destroyer, so If you play a friendly game/tournament or don't want the to the obvious choice of the destroyer take these guys.
They do have M6 and I4 both something very handy to have alongside dwarves, and of course, they are a great modelling/painting opportunity and that's a great reason to bring them.
---
Against St3/T3 models, K'daii Fireborn are amazing. But I've had them be significantly less amazing versus tougher foes. They are really excellent and clearing away chaff and such but against a decent unit, they die very quickly. Versus missile attacks they are fabulous - it takes 100 ST3 arrows to statistically do a single wound and 50 ST4 crossbows. And with a 50% chance to stop an incoming cannonball from streaking through your lines, I use mine as the vanguard of my army.
In my mind, their big weakness (aside from Burning Bright) is the lack of a musician. Not being able to do swift reforms means they have to be used carefully or it's too easy to run into positioning problems with them.
---
Grimbold Blackhammer
To me, fireborn seem a bit underwhelming. As everyone has stated, they can do some serious damage to toughness 3 models, and decent damage to toughness 4, but all at a high points cost. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me if they didn't have the toughness test self-destruct that comes along with it. I can see a unit of 6ish being a great shock troop, but one that will have a tough time making it points back.
Some synergy that I have thought about with these guys is with certain spells. Flaming sword of rhuin makes these guys into wrecking balls, making their low number of attacks, stomp and the blazing body much better against higher toughness enemies. Spells in the lore of shadow (if taking a lammasu) or death also would work very well with them as well, although I have yet to try it. Reducing an opponents ws, s or t all plays very well into the favour of the fireborn (possibly more so than any other unit in our army as these guys are some of the most fragile units the chaos dwarfs have access too, and are a relatively high priority target due to this) and really would make them a tough unit to crack.
All this being said, I kind of consider the fireborn to only be good at things a large portion of the chaos dwarf army is already good at, and that is killing lots of t3 troops. With access to things like the death shrieker, magma cannon and blunderbusses (and s4 core troops) we can already do that for a better price, and in a more reliable fashion. A shame since they are great in concept and look incredible.
---
One thing that no one has mentioned so far is their speed. When Chaos Dwarfs are M3 and Hobgoblins M4, these guys are zipping at M6. I'm building a list with a fast attack portion of the army and M6 is important.
Also, they can be good cannon screens for the K'Daai Destroyer. Put them about 4-6" in front of the Destroyer and the enemy will have a hard time finding the right range to hit the Destroyer. Then, there are the re-rolls to wound and the Ward Save to try to stop the cannonball from going through the Fireborn to hit the Destroyer. Sure, not 100% safe, but making him guess different ranges and hope he bounces enough, rolling to wound twice, the ward save, and then not rolling a 1 for wounds throws in a lot of variables that could make a cannon miss the Destroyer.
From a lot of the people on here, it seems that they aren't so good on paper, but work much better on the field. I need more experience with them, though.
---
On using them as a cannon screen for the destroyer, I am not sold on their effectiveness. A Destroyer's base is c. 6" deep, and with a 1" gap minimum between the Fireborn and the Destroyer, the only cannonball you can stop is one that has a 2" overshoot. You could, of course, position your destroyer so that you show your flank to the cannon (c. 4") but then you are probably ruining your charge for the next turn and even then only stopping 2" or 4" overshoots.
And even if the fireborn DID catch a cannon ball, they are then blocking a charge with your destroyer. You would then need to charge the fireborn before the destroyer, so need to make sure you have 2 viable targets to charge, or you are wasting both your fireborn and destroyer charging the same target.
I also think their use to your army depends on the type of game you are playing. Friendly 100 pt win-loss games they will work well, as you can use them and lose them without much thought, and will probably get mileage from them. However, in a 20-0 or similar tournament scoring system, that is points you are giving your opponent that will dent your score. At 2 wounds each, they are too vulnerable for me in this type of game.
---
I pretty much always deploy mine front and centre. They have the best chance of getting into combat before having to take toughness tests. Also against elves, this tends to be where they put their swordmasters
---
In my (limited) experience I have found that these guys are amazing for a multitude of reasons, one of them that hasnt been mentioned is backing up the destroyer. In a list I created I call the "Hammer" list I run x2 Destroyers and x12 Fireborn at 3000pts. I was finally able to test them out against some O&G this past weekend with some horrific results for my opponent:
-Massive hordes of Orcs with Goblin shooting, was running a horde of Big-Uns and Black Orcs. Charge one Destroyer and Fireborn unit into each one, both hordes were wiped out in two turns of combat.
I was able to accomplish this so fast by hitting the Destroyer into the front and the Fireborn hitting the flanks. If you can manuever your guys into a position like that It means death for almost anything they hit. I find the Fireborn extremely good at backing up my Destroyers in combat along with often being targeted instead of the Detroyers. Cheers!
---
I have added the first impression of the comments I thought added value
Strutsagget
FAQ & ERRATA UPDATE:
ERRATA
Page 184 and 185: Replace the Blazing Body rules text with the following:
‘Any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more Bale Taurus or K’daai, except a Chaos Dwarf using it as a mount or another K’daai, takes an automatic Strength 4 hit at the start of the Close Combat phase. This is a Flaming attack.
Additionally, any non-Magical attacks must re-roll successful To Wound rolls.’
FAQ
Q. Do I roll for the K’daai ‘Burning Bright’ rule at the start of each player turn? A. No, the test is made at the start of each game turn from turn 2 onwards, and is made by the Chaos Dwarf player.
Q. K’Daai are considered as Daemons for the purposes of spells & effects. Does this imply that K’Daai attacks count as Magical?
A. The K’Daai do not have Magical attacks. The reason for this is that binding them into their iron bodies renders them ‘mundane’; their magical essence is trapped within the metal shell.
The Daemonsmith's Handbook - K'daai Fireborn
Thread creator: Nicodemus - Oct 2012
The K'daai Fireborn were so fantastic in my first and second game that I decided as soon as game 2 was done I needed to have a second unit of them to add to my army - they're that good. One of my opponents (a veteran Warhammer Fantasy player who was playing Tomb Kings that game) couldn't believe how good they were, and his remark was that they would still be a bargain at twice the price. Maybe not literally, but this is a good mindset to keep when making your army list. Unless you're planning for a specific tactic or scenario, K'daai Fireborn should be one of your staple units.
Of course keep in mind that if you want to get the most bang for your buck, steer clear of units and characters with magical weapons. As per FW's latest FAQ, hits from non-magical weapons must re-roll successful Wounds, it's a shame to lose that massive perk by putting these guys up against Chaos Knights with their Ensorcelled weapons. And along this same line of thinking, maintaining the unit's Stomp and Fear special rules are very important, so keep this in mind if you have to choose between regular infantry vs. Monsters or Monstrous Infantry and the like. The K'daai will never break, but you're penalized big time (take Wounds) if they lose combat, and once a unit of K'daai Fireborn start to waiver, if they can't turn the tide of the battle, they'll be gone quickly.
Because K'daai Fireborn can potentially burn themselves out after Game Turn 2 you also need to be thinking about getting them into combat ASAP while they're still at 100% effectiveness (in terms of the points you spent). If they're not getting into combat until turn 3 or 4 there's a chance you could already be down a model or two - which comes back around to their effectiveness in battle, as soon as you start losing K'daai and the unit begins to underperform (i.e. lose combat) they'll burn out all the quicker.
I've been running my K'daai Fireborn, with a Manburner for the extra attack, 3-wide and in two ranks, this way I get the supporting attacks from the second rank. The fact that they're a Special choice is fantastic as I'm always tempted to spend a few more points on a unit of K'daai. As I only have one unit at present I don't have any tactics or input on running multiples... except that, like I said above, after my first two games I was sold on having another unit of them. At least with two units it's harder for your opponent to evade a unit of K'daai Wink
One last thought here too which occurred to me last game - Although the K'daai are amazing and can really dish out the pain (Fear, automatic flaming hits at the start of combat, their regular attacks, plus the stomp at the end, then forcing opponents to re-roll Wounds, followed by a 4+ AS...) you may want to keep in mind just how many points you're putting into your K'daai, and also how you're going to use them. Sure they may be able to wipe out a unit or two after several turns, but by the end of a 6 turn game, they could easily be gone themselves, even if they were never in combat. Either by being dealt Wounds by foes, burning themselves out at the start of each turn, or losing combat, your unit has a lot of ways to be removed from the table even if they do nothing - and these could be valueable game-winning points you relinquish to your opponent simply by dint of the fact that the K'daai are designed in their core rules to only be a temporary unit. Buyer beware!
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare sieze the fire?
What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
Excerpts from "Tyger! Tyger! burning bright" - Blake
---
I’ve used Fireborn in every game I’ve played since buying some and found them exceptionally effective.
In general I tend towards the smaller game (1000 points) so at the moment I run a unit of 3 with a Manburner though I intend on getting another three on my next visit to Warhammer World in a couple of weeks to bolster this unit up to 6 and make them more survivable.
I concur with Nicodemus (especially with a smaller unit) getting them into combat as soon as humanly possible is vital, preferably against T3 troops where the ST4 auto hit thanks to the Blazing Body rule can really do a lot of damage. The strength 5 combat hits are also pretty handy and with a WS 4 it’s going to be a rare opponent where you’re hitting on 4s or better followed by a flaming hit that will negate heavy armour.
I have found over a few games they are pretty good at taking down small elite units (Swordmasters, Black Guard etc.) the Auto hits can with a bit of luck decimate a rank before any blows are struck and the re-rolling any wounds caused is pretty useful even against reasonably high strength attacks.
My own tactic, such as it is, is to try to leave them until last during deployment and line them up against whatever looks a juicy target as far forward as the deployment type allows and go for it. It’s not much of a tactic I admit but so far it’s proved pretty effective but if they’re not in combat by the beginning of the second turn then they can start losing wounds due to the burning bright rule and then loose combat effectiveness.
Despite losing the stomp attack they can also be pretty good at taking down small units of cavalry. The combination of auto hits at the start of the combat, the decent toughness, forcing the reroll of successful wounds and the ward save has meant they’ve comfortably survived the charge of a unit of cold one knights and then done serious damage in return.
I know they’re an expensive unit and the risk of them burning out is fairly high (especially on a small unit) but on balance I think they are one of the “don’t leave home without them” units for the Legion of Azgorh.
Cheers
Vogon
---
I've used them quite some games too, always in a unit of 6 as you take quite some damage from Burning Bright (the T test you have to start making from turn 2 onwards).
I'm not overly fond of them, against some opponents (maintl S3/T3 troops) they are awesome, but they still also have the Unstable rule so that even if they stay in combat because Unbreakable they lose extra wounds because of combat difference. And as they are only W2 each that doenst leave you with a lot of leftovers at the end of a game.
Because of all this taking, a unit smaller than 6 is just a too big of a gamble.
But they are a friendly option over the way more effective Kadaai Destroyer, so If you play a friendly game/tournament or don't want the to the obvious choice of the destroyer take these guys.
They do have M6 and I4 both something very handy to have alongside dwarves, and of course, they are a great modelling/painting opportunity and that's a great reason to bring them.
---
Against St3/T3 models, K'daii Fireborn are amazing. But I've had them be significantly less amazing versus tougher foes. They are really excellent and clearing away chaff and such but against a decent unit, they die very quickly. Versus missile attacks they are fabulous - it takes 100 ST3 arrows to statistically do a single wound and 50 ST4 crossbows. And with a 50% chance to stop an incoming cannonball from streaking through your lines, I use mine as the vanguard of my army.
In my mind, their big weakness (aside from Burning Bright) is the lack of a musician. Not being able to do swift reforms means they have to be used carefully or it's too easy to run into positioning problems with them.
---
Grimbold Blackhammer
To me, fireborn seem a bit underwhelming. As everyone has stated, they can do some serious damage to toughness 3 models, and decent damage to toughness 4, but all at a high points cost. This wouldn't be a huge problem for me if they didn't have the toughness test self-destruct that comes along with it. I can see a unit of 6ish being a great shock troop, but one that will have a tough time making it points back.
Some synergy that I have thought about with these guys is with certain spells. Flaming sword of rhuin makes these guys into wrecking balls, making their low number of attacks, stomp and the blazing body much better against higher toughness enemies. Spells in the lore of shadow (if taking a lammasu) or death also would work very well with them as well, although I have yet to try it. Reducing an opponents ws, s or t all plays very well into the favour of the fireborn (possibly more so than any other unit in our army as these guys are some of the most fragile units the chaos dwarfs have access too, and are a relatively high priority target due to this) and really would make them a tough unit to crack.
All this being said, I kind of consider the fireborn to only be good at things a large portion of the chaos dwarf army is already good at, and that is killing lots of t3 troops. With access to things like the death shrieker, magma cannon and blunderbusses (and s4 core troops) we can already do that for a better price, and in a more reliable fashion. A shame since they are great in concept and look incredible.
---
One thing that no one has mentioned so far is their speed. When Chaos Dwarfs are M3 and Hobgoblins M4, these guys are zipping at M6. I'm building a list with a fast attack portion of the army and M6 is important.
Also, they can be good cannon screens for the K'Daai Destroyer. Put them about 4-6" in front of the Destroyer and the enemy will have a hard time finding the right range to hit the Destroyer. Then, there are the re-rolls to wound and the Ward Save to try to stop the cannonball from going through the Fireborn to hit the Destroyer. Sure, not 100% safe, but making him guess different ranges and hope he bounces enough, rolling to wound twice, the ward save, and then not rolling a 1 for wounds throws in a lot of variables that could make a cannon miss the Destroyer.
From a lot of the people on here, it seems that they aren't so good on paper, but work much better on the field. I need more experience with them, though.
---
On using them as a cannon screen for the destroyer, I am not sold on their effectiveness. A Destroyer's base is c. 6" deep, and with a 1" gap minimum between the Fireborn and the Destroyer, the only cannonball you can stop is one that has a 2" overshoot. You could, of course, position your destroyer so that you show your flank to the cannon (c. 4") but then you are probably ruining your charge for the next turn and even then only stopping 2" or 4" overshoots.
And even if the fireborn DID catch a cannon ball, they are then blocking a charge with your destroyer. You would then need to charge the fireborn before the destroyer, so need to make sure you have 2 viable targets to charge, or you are wasting both your fireborn and destroyer charging the same target.
I also think their use to your army depends on the type of game you are playing. Friendly 100 pt win-loss games they will work well, as you can use them and lose them without much thought, and will probably get mileage from them. However, in a 20-0 or similar tournament scoring system, that is points you are giving your opponent that will dent your score. At 2 wounds each, they are too vulnerable for me in this type of game.
---
I pretty much always deploy mine front and centre. They have the best chance of getting into combat before having to take toughness tests. Also against elves, this tends to be where they put their swordmasters
---
In my (limited) experience I have found that these guys are amazing for a multitude of reasons, one of them that hasnt been mentioned is backing up the destroyer. In a list I created I call the "Hammer" list I run x2 Destroyers and x12 Fireborn at 3000pts. I was finally able to test them out against some O&G this past weekend with some horrific results for my opponent:
-Massive hordes of Orcs with Goblin shooting, was running a horde of Big-Uns and Black Orcs. Charge one Destroyer and Fireborn unit into each one, both hordes were wiped out in two turns of combat.
I was able to accomplish this so fast by hitting the Destroyer into the front and the Fireborn hitting the flanks. If you can manuever your guys into a position like that It means death for almost anything they hit. I find the Fireborn extremely good at backing up my Destroyers in combat along with often being targeted instead of the Detroyers. Cheers!
---