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Post by chaosreigns on Sept 26, 2018 6:34:19 GMT
Hey guys,
My gaming group plays primarily old timey Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, at least as of the last six months, and it's proving to be really fun (and quite refreshing, as compared to 40k). Only thing is, the guy who hosts the group plays Dwarfs, and he pretty much runs the Master Rune of Groth One-eye (ie. all units within 12 inches are stubborn) all the time. It practice it means that the Dwarfs are de facto unbreakable with re-rollable leadership 10 in all circumstances, no matter how badly they lose combat. Honestly it can be painful to play against at times, and it often means that if you don't manage to slay the BSB before the lines clash you can basically write-off the game as a loss, because even shoveling several units into a combat, slaying huge units of Dwarfs to the last man is easier said than done.
Usually the BSB hovers in a small unit behind the lines so getting him into combat or killing him with shooting is by no means guaranteed. Likewise, sniping him with magic is no mean feat, because running a Runesmith means that the Dwarfs ostensibly have a level 4 for their dispel, can steal a magic die, and often end up with two of those runes that function like dispel scrolls (one of which also makes you forget the spell on a 4+).
I'm sure part of the problem is that most of the people in our group play lower tier armies - I play Bretonnia and Tomb Kings personally, plus we have Vampire Counts, Wood Elves and Ogre Kingdoms.
I'm somewhat at a loss as to what should be done, apart from just playing an extremely conservative game and trying to win on points by taking out one or two units and then just focusing on not letting him wipe anything of mine. What do you guys think? There doesn't seem to be too much about this rune floating around on the web. Obviously Purple Sun spam is a possibility for Vampire Counts, and to some degree for Tomb Kings, but we're hoping we can avoid that honestly.
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Post by Horace on Sept 26, 2018 12:00:34 GMT
Well if he has gone all in on a few big big units of Dwarfs, I would approach it a few different ways depending on who you are playing as.
Magic sniping is a definite option, he can't dispel or spellbreak IF spells, so tool your wizards for sniping/miscasting and keep them out of your vital units. Any bound spells are also great for miscasting on purpose. Remember if he has taken large blocks of infantry number 6 spells such as Dwellers Below are great. The Net of Amyntok is also handy if you plan on just avoiding his blocks. Death provides an excellent lore for dealing with Dwarfs. Doom and Darkness is a great spell for generally nerfing their Leadership. Spirit Leach and Fate of Bjuna are the perfect sniping spells for IF targeting his BSB.
Bretonnians have the option of a Pegasus Paladin Assassin, making use of the Gauntlet of the Duel to force challenge him
You could use the Death Mask as Tomb Kings to remove his re-rolls at least.
The other option is to simply avoid his large slow units, slow them down further through the use of redirectors and spells like Net of Amyntok, then pick off his war machines and any other stuff he has through units entombed beneath the sands, or by using units like Pegasus Knights.
Vampire Counts & Wood Elves have the same ability to do most of these things. Ogre Kingdoms I am not as sure about, I don't really know them well
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Post by sedge on Sept 26, 2018 20:42:45 GMT
I appreciate the magic defence doesn't make it easy, but Lore of Heavens would seem useful - a Comet would force movement, and Chain Lightning is good for bunched up units. Wind Blast is probably too puny to make much of a difference; Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of the Midnight Wind are also good at helping against the inevitable ranged thread you'll face.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 27, 2018 15:21:00 GMT
What else does he have in his army? Which war machines/shooting units is he using?
Going magic light is actually an option as he's spending a bit on antimagic (Runelord + items)
As a tomb king player I'd actually recommend trying 3 scorpions against him as well as a couple of burrowed tomb swarms.
No march is a big hassle for you as Tomb Kings and this will give you some units in his face as distractions and the scorpions can actually kill his bsb/runelord if they get into combat due to their killing blow.
2 scorpions and 2 swarms should be cheaper than his antimagic. Groth rune also isn't cheap.
Unfortunately most of your tomb king infantry will struggle with his and I'm not experienced playing as Bretonnians but from playing as dwarfs vs them I know that dwarfs can more often than not tank the charge.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 27, 2018 15:22:17 GMT
What else does he have in his army? Which war machines/shooting units is he using?
Going magic light is actually an option as he's spending a bit on antimagic (Runelord + items)
As a tomb king player I'd actually recommend trying 3 scorpions against him as well as a couple of burrowed tomb swarms.
No march is a big hassle for you as Tomb Kings and this will give you some units in his face as distractions and the scorpions can actually kill his bsb/runelord if they get into combat due to their killing blow.
2 scorpions and 2 swarms should be cheaper than his antimagic. Groth rune also isn't cheap.
Unfortunately most of your tomb king infantry will struggle with his and I'm not experienced playing as Bretonnians but from playing as dwarfs vs them I know that dwarfs can more often than not tank the charge.
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Dec 27, 2018 20:16:37 GMT
The main item here is that many armies rely on Combat resolution and/or a big charge to kill enemies. Unfortunately, that won't work vs Stubborn Dwarfs. I play stubborn defensive Dwarfs too (that's why rahotep75 loves me). Magic is usually a good solution in the way of purple sun, comet or lore of metal. He once brought an equally nasty group of Ironguts that did a number on my Stubborn Longbeards. Impact Hits can't be parried either and stomps work well. So some necroknights (KB and poison) and chariots on the flank could work nicely as well, but bring more than 1 rank of those.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 28, 2018 22:28:24 GMT
As we've played more I've actually had less trouble facing off against this sort of list with Tomb Kings rather than Bretonnia, which makes a lot of sense, given Bretonnia's reliance on breaking infantry units rather than slaying them to a man, and how poor Bretonnia is at grinding in general. Basically it seems like with Tomb Kings, you have to assume that you're going to be grinding for a significant portion of the game and plan accordingly - I don't actually use Skeleton Warriors, and Necropolis Knights and Tomb Guard are more than up to the task with support (for both) from Ramhotep the Visionary. Also, most of the time the core of my army is a 70-ish man unit of Skeleton Archers with Queen Khalida, which is capable of inflicting some serious pain on just about anything with Ptra's Righteous Smiting. I do want to try an Entombed Beneath the Sands list in the near future, though, since it seems as though Sepulchral Stalkers are tailor-made to fight Dwarfs. His list construction varies quite a lot actually - he used to run a gunline with two big units of 25+ Thunderers, with three cannons, two organ guns and some Gyrocopters as chaff/support. Lately he's been experimenting with different types of armies, and for the moment has settled on two big units of 40 Dwarf Warriors with great weapons as the core of his army, usually running a big-ish unit of Hammerers at the centre of the formation with the BSB and the rune that gives a 5+ ward against shooting to all units within 6 inches. That plus two cannons and assorted Gyrocopters and chaff. What I've realized since I posted my initial inquiry is that there are times when it's worth eating a miscast in order to proc an important spell, and that this seems to be the best way to get around magic defense. Even when my Prophetess is hiding in a unit of knights, casting The Dwellers Below into a giant unit of Dwarfs is often worth the inevitable miscast casualties. I've also learned to curb my expectations with Brets against stubborn Dwarfs - either commit to a combat with enough preparation (softening up with spells, missiles) and force via multi-charging to kill the unit to a man (er...Dwarf) or don't commit at all. When I first started playing Bretonnia, I always used to envision the knights sweeping the enemy from the field with a series of thunderous charges, but against certain armies (particularly Dwarfs and Vampire Counts) one needs to try to be less ambitious and more cautious in one's plans.
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Post by vulcan on Dec 28, 2018 23:07:43 GMT
8E was not kind to Bretonnia; made all the worse by them never getting a new book. It's a rare game when the knights can charge in and sweep all before them. Most games you're doing good to do it once, and then you run for your life denying points the rest of the battle.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 29, 2018 3:04:33 GMT
Agreed, although to be fair I did know what I was getting into - I purchased my Tomb Kings because I loved the models and I got into Bretonnians for the same reason. I was well aware that neither was particularly a top tier army even before I bought the models. Still though, I try to do the best I can to make my builds/strategies as effective as possible. It does seem that, at least with Bretonnia, discretion is the better part of valour. Most of the games I've won with Bretonnia, I've postured until turn 3 or 4, and set up good charges rather than going for the first charges that makes themselves available. I'm trying to get into the mindset that I'm more than likely only going to get one charge per unit, per game, or at most two if I'm extraordinarily fortunate, so you've really got to make those charges count.
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 29, 2018 8:54:25 GMT
Agreed, although to be fair I did know what I was getting into - I purchased my Tomb Kings because I loved the models and I got into Bretonnians for the same reason. I was well aware that neither was particularly a top tier army even before I bought the models. I believe the love for Warhammer comes from collecting the stuff you like and not for the strength of the army. But easy for me to say as I collect a lot of elves... Have you tried any alternate army books?
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Dec 29, 2018 15:17:58 GMT
Our own KevinC has put together an update to Bretonnia that might help out. I haven't tried it yet though to be fair. Would be fun to add some of the new Total War units too in due time.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 29, 2018 23:25:12 GMT
In all honesty, I haven't felt too hard done by playing Tomb Kings or Bretonnia. Every game I've lost was because of my own mistakes - and I've had my share of luck as well. The Grand Army of Bretonnia by KevinC is indeed pretty awesome. I played a test game using that list not too long ago (and actually posted a battle report in KevinC's thread for the army book, as well), and it does solve a lot of the problems that 6th edition Bretonnia suffers from. However, it's by no means impossible to win even just using the 6th edition book - it just takes judicious play. It wasn't exactly the play-style I was expecting, but the army is by no means useless. Even against stubborn Dwarfs, it's possible to win (on points) with intelligent play, you just have to be realistic about what your knights can and can't achieve.
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Post by vulcan on Dec 30, 2018 22:30:21 GMT
Yeah, but winning a battle with 200 points to your opponents 100 is pretty sad when you're playing at 2500 points.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 31, 2018 0:04:54 GMT
I don't disagree, but I guess needs must when Groth One-eye drives. It's a tough match-up for Brets for sure. On a good note, we use the 7th edition chart to calculate victory points now, and we almost always play 3000 points, which mean that you need to win by 450-ish victory points (if I recall correctly) for it to actually be considered a victory. That being said though, the old chart also opens up new options for the less powerful armies - it's much easier for Brets to claim table quarters than Dwarfs, for example.
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