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Post by jukei on Apr 11, 2019 17:27:51 GMT
Hello guys
I play blue scribes in my Daemon list and even if my opponents and I agree on the opinion they cast automatically I would like to ask your thoughts regarding their rules.
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FvonSigmaringen ....I know you are well prepared and I will be glad to read also your argumentation
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 12, 2019 14:43:04 GMT
I am afraid I would have to say a Blue Scribe spell is not cast automatically. This is based on the principle (BRB p. 11): "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise." Since Scrolls of Sorcery does not specifically state that the spells are cast automatically, basic rules apply, and you need power dice to cast the spell.
I am interested to hear your arguments. Previously the proponants focused on the use of "cast," where "attempt to cast" might have been more appropriate. This may or may not imply intent - we simply have no way of knowing. However, on a hunch, I compared it with the 7th edition wording (differences in Italics).
7th edition:
Xirat’p can cast one spell from one of the eight Lores in the Warhammer rulebook each Magic phase. The controlling player may choose which Lore the spell is to be cast from, but must randomly determine which spell is cast. If there is no viable target or the controlling player chooses not to cast the spell that has been rolled, Xirat’p does not cast a spell that turn. Spells cast by Xirat’p are treated as Bound Spells with a power level equal to their casting value.
8th edition:
The Blue Scribes can cast one spell from one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook during each of his own Magic phases. You can choose which lore the spell is to be cast from, but must roll a D 6 and consult the magic lore to see which spell is cast (the Blue Scribes can therefore never cast a signature spell). If there is no viable target or you choose not to cast the spell that has been rolled, the Blue Scribes do not cast a spell that turn. Spells cast by the Blue Scribes are treated as bound spells with a power level equal to their casting value.
The author did a copy and paste with the bearest of changes. Again, some might argue here an implied intent, but, to adapt Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to intent what can adequately explained by sloth.
Edit: For those who haven't played 6th or 7th edition: bound spells then were cast automatically, and the power level was only used to determine the value needed to dispel. |
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 12, 2019 16:37:14 GMT
Sounds like a bound spell to me. Thus following the rules of a bound spell.
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 19:22:52 GMT
FvonSigmaringen first of all I would like to thank you a lot.
I think you are giving a concrete and precious help to this forum.
strutsagget ..thank also to you for the anwer.
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 19:33:07 GMT
I will try to motivate my point of view. In my opinion they cast "automatically for the following reasons. (BRB p. 11): "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise". the Rule choose the adverb “specifically” which means,according to the Cambridge dictionary exactly, or in detail. dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/specifically?q=specifically+ It has to be clear it doesn 't mean "literally" or " explicitly"!!!! That's the crucial point. Regarding this I find interesting to mention also that specifically has the same root of “special “ which recalls us the idea of something not usual. ( dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/special?q=special+ ) With this in mind we can say so that “unless specifically stated otherwise” can be intended without a shadow of a doubt, as “unless it is specified in details otherwise ". and that is exactly what is done in the Bluescrube rule !!! The rule states : "the Blue Scribes can cast one spell from one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook during each of his own Magic phases. You can choose which lore the spell is to be cast from, but must roll a D 6 and consult the magic lore to see which spell is cast (the Blue Scribes can therefore never cast a signature spell). If there is no viable target or you choose not to cast the spell that has been rolled, the Blue Scribes do not cast a spell that turn. Spells cast by the Blue Scribes are treated as bound spells with a power level equal to their casting value. " This rule is explaining the specific way BS cast a) choose lore spell b) roll d D6 to see which spell "is cast" Now there you are another crucial point Here it is specifically /clearly stated “is cast” ...instead of “ is attempted to cast “.
but It's not finished .. we have another “specific “ sentence who deserves our attention because “states in details otherwise”... The rule adds “ If there is no viable target or you choose not to cast the spell that has been rolled, the Blue Scribes do not cast a spell that turn”. Therefore there are the only two ways the spell does not cast. there is no possibility to fail to cast ! To conclude player has only to choose what lore or whether or not to cast. If this is not enough let ''s go on last sentence states “Spells cast by the Blue Scribes are treated as bound spells with a power level equal to their casting value” This sentence enforces my interpretation because it 's a consequence of the automatic process of casting. Because BS cast automatically it was needed to specify at which power level in order to clarify how much it is needed to reach for dispelling. In fact the rule doesn 't say it is a bound spell and it follows all the rule of bound spells. But it 's treated as bound spell.
If they had stated it 's a bound spell then we could have arrived to the simple conclusion to read page 37 BRB and followi the clear bound spell 's rule- But no. It 's stated "treated as bound spell." for the purposes of clarifying the otherwise unknown casting result and for stating that the wizard has to equal or beat it for a successful dispelling . To conclude , the rule does not explicitly state “automatically cast” but instead , accordingly to the main rule, specifies in details the unique and special Bluscribe casting process. |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Apr 12, 2019 20:26:42 GMT
Page 31 of the BRB also says "To cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spells to cast, and declares the target of the spell." This statement also lacks the crucial 'attempt to' that the argument in favor of the Blue Scribes auto-casting relies upon, but following the above rational you would never have to roll to cast a spell. I think the phase "can cast one spell..." is saying they have the physical capability to do so, not saying that it is automatically cast. It's like saying that a Loremaster of Hoeth can cast Fireball. It's a true statement, but doesn't mean that he can cast Fireball without rolling.
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Post by gorfung on Apr 12, 2019 20:30:06 GMT
if you go by the assumption its automatically cast, then you would always have too cast the spell chosen and ignore the "you choose not to cast the spell that has been rolled" part of the rule
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 20:34:29 GMT
thanks also to you Crownprinceimrik for the help.
I touched several points to the argument in favor of the BS auto casting.
Please consider also the "full picture" I described.
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 20:42:36 GMT
but sorry
but why phrasing all the rule in this way ?
They could have stated simply...
"the Blue Scribes can cast one spell from one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook during each of his own Magic phases. You can choose which lore the spell is to be cast from, but must roll a D 6 and consult the magic lore to see which spell is cast.
Spells cast by the Blue Scribes follows all the rules of bound spells"
don 't you think ?
moreover
If the Scribes have to use PD the last part of the Artifacts description makes absolutely no sense.
If power dice were indeed used, the casting value of the spell would be the value of the dice roll not the minimum casting value of the spell.
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 20:48:16 GMT
no doubt the BS rule is poorly written
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 21:20:00 GMT
I found also people considering this further element from 40K Daemon codex ( that time )
From pg43 of the Daemon Codex:
"At the start of each friendly turn, choose a Psychic Discipline from the Warhammer 40k rulebook, and roll a D6 - this turn, the Blue Scribes can automatically manifest that power (they cannot swap it for the Primaris Power).
This does not cost and Warp Charge points, and does not require a Psychic Test - it can, however, be prevented by a successful Deny the Witch roll, if the target is entitled to one..."
not a good argument for sure..but still...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 12, 2019 21:30:37 GMT
I must admit, I was hoping you had a new argument. I cannot agree that just using the phrase "the spell is cast" is "specifically stating" that you do not need to use power dice. GW has some clearly defined terms, some of which are even used in a consistent manner, but this is not one of them, at least not in the sense you are trying to infuse. Apart from the example already given by crownprinceimrik , let me add BRB p. 30: "When a Wizard casts a spell, he takes a number of dice from the power pool in order to make the attempt. Accordingly, each time a spell is cast, the power pool will shrink a little, thus limiting the number of spells the casting player can attempt each Magic phase." Here too it says specifically "a spell is cast'', but the power pool shrinks with each casting attempt, whether or not the spell was in fact cast. To be completely correct, it should have read: "When a Wizard is attempting to cast a spell" and "each time a spell is attempted to be cast." Similarly, BRB p. 32 states: "When casting a spell, a Wizard can use from one to six power dice." Again, to be completely correct, it should have been "When attempting to cast a spell etc." There are more examples, but I should think these suffice that relying on a too exclusive meaning of "cast" is a dead end. Nor does the "treated as a bound spell" enforce your interpretation. Take the Empire's Ring of Volans: "Enchanted Item. One use only. Bound Spell (power level variable). At the beginning one of the eight Lores of Magic from the rulebook and generate a spell from it as if the wearer were a Level 1 Wizard. That spell is bound within the Ring of Volans and cast, just like a bound spell, with a power level equal to the normal casting value of the spell." Here the description already specifies that it is a bound spell - and then proceeds to state that the spell is cast (not "attempted to be cast!") "just llke a bound spell." |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 12, 2019 21:38:41 GMT
but sorry but why phrasing all the rule in this way ? They could have stated simply... "the Blue Scribes can cast one spell from one of the eight Lores of Battle Magic in the Warhammer rulebook during each of his own Magic phases. You can choose which lore the spell is to be cast from, but must roll a D 6 and consult the magic lore to see which spell is cast. Spells cast by the Blue Scribes follows all the rules of bound spells" don 't you think ? As I said above: The author did a copy and paste with the bearest of changes. Again, some might argue here an implied intent, but, to adapt Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to intent what can adequately explained by sloth. |
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Post by jukei on Apr 12, 2019 21:43:22 GMT
The ring of volans rule has specific rule in Empire army book. It s a specific enchanted item with rules phrased in a way completely different by BS rule. Here it's stated clearly the process of casting with the ring as it is stated clearly the process of BS casting .And .....it's little bit different. Ring rules say "cast just like a bound spell, with a power level equal to the normal casting value of the spell. " Bs rules states " treated as "not "cast as ". new argument? I explained extensively why i get to that conclusion starting from the BRB rule going through the BS rule. I don 't expect to be right or to convince anybody but at least I think I motivated my point of view. But once more...let me say I am happy here I can find people like you guys ...ready to answer and help.  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 12, 2019 21:54:39 GMT
moreover If the Scribes have to use PD the last part of the Artifacts description makes absolutely no sense. If power dice were indeed used, the casting value of the spell would be the value of the dice roll not the minimum casting value of the spell. You're misreading the sentence. What you refer to is not the casting value, but the casting roll or casting result. With bound spells, the required casting value for a spell is equal to the bound spell's power level. However, since the Scrolls (just like the Ring of Volans) do not have a fixed spell, they do not have a fixed power level either. The power level is dependent on the normal casting value of the spell that will be chosen. To add: in the 7th, this sentence was needed to establish the dispel value; in the 8th to establish the casting value. |
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