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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 7, 2019 6:01:41 GMT
On to the next Tomb Kings topic! In this thread I hope to create a discussion around the best "hammer" unit for a Tomb Kings army (no End Times stuff... pure TK goodness only!). For anyone who is unfamiliar with the term, a "hammer" unit is defined as a unit that is designed to dish out wounds to enemy units in close combat.You can consider the unit working in on its own or as part of a hammer & anvil pairing. As a guide, here are some questions to consider and discuss: - What is the best TK hammer unit? And why do you feel it is better than the others?
- What size unit do you typically run?
- How many of these units do you typically field? (and in what sized army)
- What options (if any) do you give this unit? (command, magic standards, weapon options, other upgrades etc.)
- What is your general strategy with this unit? Any tricks or tips?
- Are there any units that you field alongside this unit in order to help it fulfill its mission?
- What are the ideal targets for the unit?
- What should you avoid or protect against?
Some factors to consider when making your decision: - effectiveness vs. points cost
- strengths vs. weaknesses
- core vs. special vs. rare (and what other units might compete for those points)
- dependability
- enemy counter play against the unit
- how it has fared in your armies!
The above questions/factors are merely a guide to generate in-depth analysis and discussion, however feel free to tackle the topic in any way you see fit.
Don't forget to vote in the poll!!  |
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Post by killerangel on May 7, 2019 11:26:41 GMT
That requires some thinking, as there are really many factors to consider...
Nice poll!
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Post by killerangel on May 8, 2019 11:13:14 GMT
WINNER
by a very small margin (ahead of NK), Skeleton Chariots.
The reasoning behind it.
It's the only chariot unit in all WFB... this alone is an advantage over other armies we cannot easily discard
Chariots are CORE. We have heavier hammers, but those drain resources from other slots (special units), while to have a solid hammer in Core, it's an enormous bonus point.
6 Attacks per model, impact hits, great synergies with nehekhara spells, great bus for a King / Prince on chariot
The main problem is that they absolutely need to break their target on the charge, otherwise you'll have problems.
ALMOST WINNERS
more or less in order of preference, but they are all excellent units
Necroknights. solid armor save, killing blow, poisoned Attacks, good move. Very strong, i ranked the chariots above these guys only because chariots are core and the NK are special. A place that is filled also by my other two fav. units
Tomb Guards. bunker for our King, great fighters, killing blow that can be raised up to 5+, they excel when buffed also by a Necrotect, can stay in a prolonged fight... i love them, but alas, they're obviously not fast.
Warkitty: T8. plus, template breath weapon and can be healed. Excellent monster, but obviously it suffers CR and cannonballs.
OTHER UNTTS
Ushabty. the only way they can be great is when taken in a horde to form a Deathstar. But they will suck half of your points pool
Necrosphinx. meh, it's a monster hunter that relies basically only on its heroic killing blow and costs a lot. It can work once in a while, but we're talking about consistent performances.
Necrolith Colossus??? Never played it and never saw played, so i cannot say anything
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 3:12:38 GMT
killerangelOkay here goes my list... #1 Tomb GuardPros: - Versatile - weapon options, command, magic standard
- Easy to heal
- Character support - characters have the same base size and unit type
- Works well at different point sizes
- Easy to buff
- KB
Cons:
- Movement 4
- Very little defense
- Vulnerable to templates
#2 Ushabti - (my #1 choice at very large sizes 18+)Pros: - highest damage output - strength 6
- monstrous supporting attacks
- work pretty well even unsupported
Cons - very limited healing
- no magic standard
- difficult to support with characters
- less effective at small unit sizes
#3 Necropolis Knights
Pros: - best armour save in the army (even better with a Ramhotep build)
- "fast" (for a TK)
- excellent damage potential from the front rank (5 attacks a piece, KB for 2, poison for 3)
Cons - only useful at smaller unit sizes due to inefficient supporting attacks
- extremely large footprint
- very limited healing
- no magic standard
- extremely difficult to support with characters
#4 Skeleton Chariots
Pros:
- core choice
- impact hits!
- easy to heal
- character support
- easy to buff
- "fast" (for a TK)
Cons
- reliant on the charge, no real staying power
- very random... it all comes down to those impact hit rolls
- squishy
- large footprint
Pros: - toughness 8
- decent damage output with a small frontage (less incoming attacks)
- breath weapon
- thunderstomp
Cons:
- extremely susceptible to cannons
- extremely susceptible to poison
- no character support
- very limited healing
- no magic standard
- can't be paired with a tar pit unit (because they bleed combat resolution and the kitty only has 5 wounds)
The other units I don't really consider to be effective hammer units. I just included them for the sake of completeness and with the hopes that someone might have a very clever strategy/tactic to utilize them.
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Post by killerangel on May 9, 2019 11:12:53 GMT
#4 Skeleton Chariots
Pros:
- core choice
- impact hits!
- easy to heal
- character support
- easy to buff
- "fast" (for a TK)
Cons
- reliant on the charge, no real staying power
- very random... it all comes down to those impact hit rolls
- squishy
- large footprint
A (sort of) funny thing, is that even if i gave my vote to Chariots (because they're Core), i don't always use them... because they're Core. ;P
it depends a lot on the list: when i play a Khalida list, my core points go into archers, so i don't have the points for chariots, and things as Necroknights or Tomb Guards are the first choice as hammer.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 15:20:21 GMT
A (sort of) funny thing, is that even if i gave my vote to Chariots (because they're Core), i don't always use them... because they're Core. ;P
it depends a lot on the list: when i play a Khalida list, my core points go into archers, so i don't have the points for chariots, and things as Necroknights or Tomb Guards are the first choice as hammer.
To be honest, no single hammer unit listed above consistently makes into all my lists. Each list will include one or more of them, but none have risen to the level of an auto include. So I gather that you rated Chariots as #1 because they are core (because as you stated, Necroknoghts or Tomb Guard are your first choice as a hammer). So if all things were equal and there were no categories of core, special, rare and you were creating your most optimal list, would Necroknights get the nod as your choice for the best TK hammer unit? |
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Post by killerangel on May 9, 2019 18:51:14 GMT
A (sort of) funny thing, is that even if i gave my vote to Chariots (because they're Core), i don't always use them... because they're Core. ;P
it depends a lot on the list: when i play a Khalida list, my core points go into archers, so i don't have the points for chariots, and things as Necroknights or Tomb Guards are the first choice as hammer.
To be honest, no single hammer unit listed above consistently makes into all my lists. Each list will include one or more of them, but none have risen to the level of an auto include. So I gather that you rated Chariots as #1 because they are core (because as you stated, Necroknoghts or Tomb Guard are your first choice as a hammer). So if all things were equal and there were no categories of core, special, rare and you were creating your most optimal list, would Necroknights get the nod as your choice for the best TK hammer unit?
I'd say that chariots would easily drop to third place, with 1st and 2nd taken by NK and TG. Or TG and NK... They're pretty close.
Ushabties are good and solid, but they really cost a lot to form a huge unit.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 10, 2019 5:42:07 GMT
I'd say that chariots would easily drop to third place, with 1st and 2nd taken by NK and TG. Or TG and NK... They're pretty close.
Ushabties are good and solid, but they really cost a lot to form a huge unit.
Ushabti really need the numbers to perform well. I believe that a horde of 18 strong Ushabti is the single most powerful hammer the TK have. No other unit at that number of points (900 points + 30 for command) is as good. Even Tomb Guard are surpassed once the units enter serious death star territory. I fielded an 18 strong Ushabti horde against my wife's Wood Elves (at 3000 points) and while it did disintegrate anything and everything it came into contact with, it was a huge number of points focused in a slow moving unit. When they got out of position (they failed their leadership test to restrain pursuit) the rest of the army felt vulnerable while they slowly lumbered back into position. The question is, how well can Ushabti perform at medium sized units, 8-9 models? I think I might have been better served if I split that 18 strong unit into two units of 9. However, do Tomb Guard surpass them as such point levels? Maybe the most powerful TK hammer is fully dependent on unit size... small-medium units - Necropolis Knights medium-large units- Tomb Guard large-deathstar units - Ushabti Just a thought. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 20, 2019 2:18:13 GMT
Im actually going to give a shout out to the Bone Giant aka the Colossus.
It's rolling dependent but actually designed as a hammer unit with the chance to generate additional attacks on the charge.
At movement 6 it's quicker than Ushabti and Strength 6 it's more effective at killing T4 infantry like dwarfs and Beastmen with its thunderstomp than a Warsphinx.
It's biggest drawback in achieving this is the low WS but with Settra/magic these can be overcome.
The standard layout is additional hand weapon but Great Weapon for Strength 8 (only 4 attacks) is also viable.
I will say that when I play friendly 'Chillhammer' matches the big guy gets buffed with heavy armor (like he originally had) so has a 3+ armor save in close combat which makes a considerable difference vs S 3/4.
If running Settra I will definitely take at least 1 of these guys and try and keep him in the WS 7 bubble to charge in and hopefully mulch stuff.
With S6, T6 his ideal opponents are S4, T4 low attack infantry units. He can excel in these matchups.
Nightbringer mentioned how a downside of the Warsphinx is that it can't be paired with a tarpit unit due to combat resolution (crumbly, crumbly skeletons). A Warsphinx actually pairs quite well with a bone giant in this regard and the two can work very well together. Against a 5 wide squad they can both get in with no overhang as combined they are only 100 wide.
It's not optimal (what is with Tomb Kings lol) but I always enjoyed running the double bone giant combo (1 with GW, 1 with AHW). In a 2000 points game these 2 slot in nicely with the Casket to use up the rare section. 490 points if I recall correctly.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 21, 2019 6:28:27 GMT
It's not optimal (what is with Tomb Kings lol) Casket of Souls! |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 28, 2019 6:02:01 GMT
It's not optimal (what is with Tomb Kings lol) Casket of Souls! Well...this is true...but besides the obligatory casket The Casket would see use in many armies for its utility. |
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