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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 28, 2019 13:18:19 GMT
A Bridge Too Far, An Epic Multi-Player Game
Brace yourselves for a truly epic 40,000 point game pitting The Dwarfs versus Chaos in the Old World of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Essentially, this will be a “Bridge Too Far” type game, rules are being codified. Based on Ad Hoc conversations and messages over the past week, I thought I’d take some of our ideas and get them on the forum. All of the ideas (as posted today, 5/28) are TBD and open for discussion. --WHERE: Rochester NY --DATE: TBD, November maybe? --THE PLAYERS.TEAM DWARF Will, Jason, Dan, Boda dannytee boda317 wilsonthenarc avatarofbugman TEAM CHAOS Jerry, Rich, Kevin, Brett TheREALricksalamone chuckjerry KevinC Each team will have 5,000 points, x4, x2 = 40,000 --THE BATTLEFIELDEssentially, we’re constrained by available room space and shape slightly, so a long table would be ideal. At this time, we’re thinking 20ft long x 4ft wide might work. Need space to fit in all the armies and keep mobility. The main terrain feature will be a river. A true river, say, 6in to 12in wide (min 6in W at all points, 10in W on average). This river can’t simply we walked through by troops. We’re considering making it impassable. We’re considering dangerous terrain rolls, etc. The whole point of the battle will be to control the seven (7) bridges at the end of the battle. The bridges will all have their own flavors. i.e. one will be the MAIN bridge and be 250MM+ wide, maybe as much as 12in to accommodate (up to) a horde of Chaos Warriors on 25mm bases. Other bridges will be narrower. One bridge will be “ruins” and must be forded in skirmish formation. One bridge will be steam powered by the Dwarfs and able to be lifted (drawbridge). So on and so forth. We may have a resource to build the custom river in five (5) sections, each 4ft long. --THE GAMEWill be 10 turns. The winner is whoever holds more Bridges at the end of the bottom of turn 10. Bridges are held by a count on “Unit Strength”, meaning Infantry are worth 1, Cavalry are worth 2, Monstrous Infantry and Cavalry are worth 3 each, anything on a Monster base is worth 5, all others are at discretion. Each bridge is counted independently. A miniature is only counted if it is wholly on the bridge, not partly. It is therefore possible that some miniatures in a unit will score to hold a bridge and other miniatures in the same unit will not. Magic Phase Rules will be TBD. The Dwarfs don’t need a phase, right? Neither does Khorne (and Rich and Brett are both Khorne heavy). Maybe 2D6 base + D6 magic dice for each Chaos God? Looking for input here. **Editor’s note, I imagine that what the Dwarf shooting phase feels like for Chaos, the Chaos magic phase will feel like for the Dwarfs. --ALT RULESWe discussed an option to give Chaos points for “breakthrough” units, i.e. units with a command that reach the dwarf table edge. This represents Chaos breaking through to the dwarf heartland of farms and villages surrounding the keep proper. We questioned how flyers (for Chaos) will work. Chaos can just bring a bunch of Chimeras and leapfrog the river. Is that an issue? Likewise, we questioned how Miners and/or Rangers (for Dwarfs) will work. At this time, we anticipate using standard WFB rules and don’t see this being an issue. We want to develop rules for rafts and boats. We want to develop rules for Slayer Pirates on a boat. We want to develop rules for a Dwarf ironclad for Barak Varr coming down the river with artillery support. We’re adding rules for Dwarf Badger Cavalry. Check back for those. Unrelated to the “Bridge” theme, but too cool to not do. Check this space for more updates...
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 28, 2019 13:55:25 GMT
I love the idea, you'll definitely have to post pictures! Will it be 40,000 points of fully painted Warhammer glory?
I've got some thoughts and suggestions: I think you cannot make the river impassable. Maybe make it extra dangerous by making DT tests fail on a 1,2? If there are really only 7 places where Chaos can cross the river the Dwarves will win it by a landslide. Dwarves excel at long grinds, one unit of Ironbreaks holding each bridge will take an age to cut through and if the Dwarf artillery is completely free from concern from Marauder Horsemen, etc, they will be exceptionally powerful. The Dwarves really would just need 1-2 combat units to hold each bridge and the rest of the army can be shooting into the other side of the bottleneck.
I'm not sure about having a massively wide bridge for a Chaos Horde to fit on. It might be needed for gameplay, but there's some loss of realism there. Bridges were never built to accommodate combat formations, in fact if the bridge was intended to be defensible the Dwarves would build it narrower. The Bridge of Khazad-Dum from Moria is the perfect example of that, though of course that's taking it to a ridiculous level.
I'd be surprised if there's much left on the table by Turn 10! Might be a bit long.
Dwarves do need a magic phase if they bring the Anvil (though why would you), and they may need a phase to dispel Remains in Play spells. I tend to think magic should not be massively scaled up for larger games, but you could have the Chaos side roll 2D6 dice into a 'pool' and then have each player generate an additional D6 dice. The pool can be shared between players while the D6 dice are only available to that player.
I don't think Flyers or Rangers or Miners are an issue. Chaos will desperately need to be able to cross the river to get to the Dwarf guns and fliers do that perfectly while also being very thematic. Also, considering that holding the bridges determines who wins, having fliers cross the river won't get Chaos points at the end of the day. I'd not keep the Breakthrough rules unless you simultaneously give the Dwarves some extra way to score points.
Having Slayer Pirates and an ironclad come in are very interesting ideas, but in this scenario I personally think Chaos is at the disadvantage, so I'd be careful about adding too many Dwarf benefits unless you also add rules for the Chaos Gods interfering in the fight as well, or having powerful Chaos toys like the examples in the Slaughter at Volganof scenario from the BRB.
As a question, in this scenario will both sides deploy 12" on like Battleline, or because it's a Dwarf-defending-the-bridges scenario will the Dwarves get to deploy anywhere on their side of the river?
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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 28, 2019 14:32:44 GMT
I love the idea, you'll definitely have to post pictures! Will it be 40,000 points of fully painted Warhammer glory? Yes. Full paint. I am not a "Golden Demon" level Rembrandt, my entire army is tabletop level. It looks nice as an army. Others involved are really good painters. We should "hire" someone to take pictures throughout the day(s). **I imagine Kevin will go through and find any "primed only" Dwarf Warriors. They would, of course, be instantly removed as casualties.
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Post by knoffles on May 28, 2019 19:09:50 GMT
Damn I’m gutted I live on the wrong side of the pond! This sounds brilliant. Badger riders? I wonder where I’ve seen those before 😉. Can you also field stone golems?
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on May 28, 2019 19:13:29 GMT
Man I wish I could be there!
I'd bring a Skaven contingent for the Chaos side!
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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 28, 2019 20:40:50 GMT
I think you cannot make the river impassable. Maybe make it extra dangerous by making DT tests fail on a 1,2? If there are really only 7 places where Chaos can cross the river the Dwarves will win it by a landslide. Dwarves excel at long grinds, one unit of Ironbreaks holding each bridge will take an age to cut through and if the Dwarf artillery is completely free from concern from Marauder Horsemen, etc, they will be exceptionally powerful. The Dwarves really would just need 1-2 combat units to hold each bridge and the rest of the army can be shooting into the other side of the bottleneck. Cool, we're having a good discussion here. I was thinking: IF (if) Infantry can cross the river, they fail DT on a 1 and (AND) have to test if they are in combat. Each round. Meaning, the Dwarfs can set up on the edge and fight and slowly kill the quasi-amphibious Khorne Halberds trying to take Omaha Beach. And then, same rules, but - Cavalry fail on 1-2; Monstrous Cavalry fail on a 1-3; Monsters fail on a 1-3; Chariots (and all other war machines) fail on a 1-4. The idea of bad guys splashing through watery fords, losing dudes to raging currents, all to take the firm ground has a certain appeal to me. Dwarfs excel at long grinds, one unit of Ironbreakers holding each bridge will take an age to cut through... Respectfully disagree. I think a lot of Chaos units pack so much punch that they'll kill such units to a man. I think Chaos has access to a lot of additional stomp, thunder-stomp, and impact hits that can also deplete a dwarf unit. Wrathmongers. Trolls. Knights. They're all quite good at killing infantry that's otherwise really good. My expectation would be 4 to 5 rounds of combat (2.5 game turns). And the Dwarfs will be sitting ducks, allowing Chaos to pick their fights.
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Post by gorfung on May 28, 2019 20:52:33 GMT
warmachines I would agree would have a tougher time in rivers, but the larger the creature/man the easier it would be too fight in water compared too infantry imo, and if you have them failing on such high numbers they will only last like 1-2 rounds of combat before they almost auto die
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Post by Naitsabes on May 28, 2019 23:54:30 GMT
so first of all, how about making sure this is the biggest 8th edition game ever played (and well documented). What did the Spaniards to again for the rendition of the battle of Kislev? We are talking eternal glory in the afterlife here but, it's a steep hill to climb. I would be worried about this devolving into 10+ guys playing five games side by side. Which is still cool, just not as cool. This is often a problem with large games and your current setup (long skinny table, seven objectives presumably evenly spread out along the center line, multiple medium-sized armies) kind of leads that way as well. so. how about not having ~6 generals and BSB per side (not sure if that was the plan to begin with). how about making the table less skinny? very dependent on your location. at the very least you can make it 6' deep. and not allow deployment 1-2 feet in from the short sides. this pushes the setup into multiple battle lines and allows for flanking maneuvers from 'fast stuff'. how about some kind of flanking army? dwarfs pouring out of an innocent looking hill on the chaos side, a daeamonic portal opening on the dwarf side, or something more conventional with units coming in from the short side. something so this isn't just two (very long) lines of troops slamming into each other. I do like the extra-wide bridge (can always say the dwarfs built it in the Golden Age when trade caravans and mining carts were massive). I do struggle a bit with the 'fantastic realism' of seven bridges. Why would there be this many on a short stretch of river? You could just declare sections of the river more passable to give chaos some natural targets for the break-through but only award scenario points for the main bridge. then find other ways to score scenario pts, e.g. killing a certain dwarf character or getting a certain unit to the dwarf deployment zone or whatever else comes to mind. As mentioned above that would also help with the Parallel Battle Syndrome (PBS. it's a thing, look it up, I totally didn't just make it up ) that is facilitated by the seven bridges. anyway, just some thoughts. Big games are where it's really at. You guys rock.
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Post by mottdon on May 29, 2019 14:05:07 GMT
I LOVE this idea! I'd totally want to get in on that game if I lived closer!
Some really good points are made here. I don't think that Dwarfs will be too difficult to crush for Chaos. Nobody is really. In fact, I think it'll be the other way around if the Dwarf artillery is taken out, which fliers will be a real threat here, so I think they should be included. But you might want to put a cap on number of certain units, so that you don't have 20 Chimeras and 10 Disk Lords flying over the board or 40 Cannons trying to shoot them down.
As for the board set up, I was thinking something like 6' deep as well. The length is fine to me, but maybe you can set up some secondary objectives that will work together, or Chaos Portals/Dwarven Mines that will allow units to randomly pop out in another location.
Also, I think that having units of Slayer Pirates which can disembark on either side of the river would be ideal as well as having some units (Miners or Rangers maybe?) That can build bridges to cross wherever they want. These options would give each side a more thematic role and the Dwarven options to cross the river would offset the Chaos ability to fly and allow more opportunity to get some juicy rear charges off on units holding bridges and prevent bottlenecks at those 7 points.
I think the extra wide bridge is a great idea! I'd even say that as long as your table set up is, you could go with three extra large bridges. If you think of cities like Altdorf, they will have major bridge avenues heading into the city. Dwarfs will be easily able to build structures like that. Besides, we all know that short people like to overcompensate. 😄
About magic:. I like the idea of 2D6 + a D6 for each Chaos god represented (except for Khorne). You might also want to give the Anvil some other spells (like the lore of Heavens Thunderbolt spell) to make it a viable option for the Dwarves. That could balance out Chaos's Hellcannon option. Limited magic vs limited shooting.
Please take lots of pictures though! Sounds totally epic!
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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 29, 2019 16:09:24 GMT
But you might want to put a cap on number of certain units, so that you don't have 20 Chimeras and 10 Disk Lords flying over the board or 40 Cannons trying to shoot them down. The Cap is what is painted. If Team Dwarf has 40 cannons painted and flocked, so be it. If team Chaos wants to paint 20 Disc Lords, they can. Knowing what I know about the actual armies available... My count is about 10-12 cannons between us, and 2 or 3 Disc Lords. Also, a vague notion of "Gentleman's" rules pervades our group, so I am not overly concerned. I would encourage 20 Chimeras. A flock. A herd? A murder? This builds on the "Unit of Three Wyverns" KevinC brought last time we were all together. Which was F'ing Cool. #Noproxies
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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 29, 2019 16:18:29 GMT
How about some kind of flanking army? dwarfs pouring out of an innocent looking hill on the chaos side, a daeamonic portal opening on the dwarf side, or something more conventional with units coming in from the short side. something so this isn't just two (very long) lines of troops slamming into each other. I do like the extra-wide bridge (can always say the dwarfs built it in the Golden Age when trade caravans and mining carts were massive). I do struggle a bit with the 'fantastic realism' of seven bridges. Why would there be this many on a short stretch of river? You could just declare sections of the river more passable to give chaos some natural targets for the break-through but only award scenario points for the main bridge. My nebulous hope was that the turn length (10 turns) and number of bridges (7) would result in natural breakthrough points and large scale flanking results. Meaning, for example, Chaos would smash a light resistance and pour through at B2 (bridge #2). They would have many (many) units in reserve so that by turns 4 and 5, Chaos could be easily going over a bridge and then diverting troops to both the left and the right. A strong beachhead. I think this requires [1] that Dwarfs deploy their ENTIRE army first, en masse, and that [2] Chaos can deploy as many units as they want, and hold as many as they want in reserve. Chaos moves so much faster, and dwarfs move comically slow, which provides a necessary element of motion and tactics-of-moving. The game is won and lost in the movement phase, no?
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Post by Horace on May 29, 2019 16:48:18 GMT
Sounds epic. If you could just do something like this in Yorkshire...
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Post by knoffles on May 29, 2019 17:25:27 GMT
When you say 7 bridges, would at least 1 be a Ford? Visually it would add something different and would allow you to have some slightly different rules around units in it.
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Post by sedge on May 29, 2019 19:08:25 GMT
When you say 7 bridges, would at least 1 be a Ford? Visually it would add something different visually and would allow you to have some slightly different rules around units in it. I was going to suggest something along those lines - a river crossing doesn't have to be a bog-standard Mk.1 bridge. It could be a humble ford, a pontoon bridge carried into place by some particularly brawny yet practically minded Khornate marauders, a Tzeentchian spell that freezes the water into ice, or a giant scuttling daemonic bridge that can move up and down the river. The only limits are your imagination and what you have the time to model.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on May 29, 2019 21:28:00 GMT
The only limits are your imagination and what you have the time to model. LOVE
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