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Post by Horace on Jun 6, 2019 13:18:17 GMT
I went into this in another thread at some point but the argument is still persisting. I was wondering if people could help settle this with their take on the matter. I have seen this discussed on other forums too with both sides argued, but people probably generally siding with it being a template. The rule is pictured below. In my opinion the "However no template is used" does not stop the Doom Diver being a template weapon which inflicts "template" hits using it's non-standard base as the template instead. Thus if a ridden monster was hit by the DD both the rider and the monster would take D6 hits.. It has been argued that the above means it is not a template weapon and therefore does not inflict hits like that. It has also been argued that "if any units are touched by the Doom Diver's base, then each must take D6 Strength 5 hits.." means that the "unit" ie the monster only takes D6 hits in total. However my take is that Ridden Monster rules on p104 state that a template hits both the rider and the monster, and since the DD inflicts D6 rather than the standard 1 hit you might expect from artillery, both the rider and the monster take D6 hits.
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Post by larabic on Jun 6, 2019 13:34:03 GMT
I would roll d6 hits and randomize them as normal shooting rules, 5's and 6's hitting the rider.
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Post by vulcan on Jun 6, 2019 15:19:58 GMT
I would roll d6 hits and randomize them as normal shooting rules, 5's and 6's hitting the rider. Except nowhere in the rules for the Doom Diver NOR for the Stone Thrower do the rules say you randomize hits as normal shooting rules. Thus, the rules stated in the Stone Thrower prevail.
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 6, 2019 15:23:29 GMT
I would roll d6 hits and randomize them as normal shooting rules, 5's and 6's hitting the rider. I would do the same as it’s the unit not the models taking the hit. And a ridden monster is a unit together. “A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, ....” Excerpt From WARHAMMER RULEBOOK And together with the part saying the doom diver goblin is not a template as that is an exception to the above rule.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 6, 2019 16:01:57 GMT
The stonethrower (and any other war machine) is not a template weapon per se - it is a weapon that normally uses a template. The rules for templates are just that: rules for templates, not for the weapon using them. If it does not use a template, as is specifically stated in the case of the Doom Diver, then the rules for templates do not apply. Compare this to the cannon: if a cannon fires normally, it uses a template, and thus the rules for templates apply; if it fires grapeshot, it does not use a template, and the rules for templates do not apply.
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 6, 2019 16:22:45 GMT
I would also argue but this is not a rule opinion of any barring but more of the spirit of the game(personal preference).
Doom diver is pretty good anyway and ridden monster is seldom too good.
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Post by Horace on Jun 6, 2019 18:40:49 GMT
The stonethrower (and any other war machine) is not a template weapon per se - it is a weapon that normally uses a template. The rules for templates are just that: rules for templates, not for the weapon using them. If it does not use a template, as is specifically stated in the case of the Doom Diver, then the rules for templates do not apply. Compare this to the cannon: if a cannon fires normally, it uses a template, and thus the rules for templates apply; if it fires grapeshot, it does not use a template, and the rules for templates do not apply. So you would not follow the monster hit by template rules?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 6, 2019 20:02:03 GMT
Yes, as the ridden monster is not hit by a template. The term "template weapon(s)" is not part of the game register, and is only used once in the BRB (in a caption on p. 127), as the short form of "weapons that use a template." However, "using a template" is part of the register, and the rules for the Doom Diver specifically state that "no template is used."
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Post by vulcan on Jun 7, 2019 15:28:12 GMT
Ah, no, the doom diver DOES use a template - the doom diver's BASE.
Saying it doesn't use a template because it doesn't use either the circular template or the teardrop is the same as saying a cannon doesn't use a template...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 7, 2019 15:56:26 GMT
The rule says "no template is used" - that means no template is used. You would have a point, if the rule had just said: "instead of a template, use..."; or that "it is is treated exactly like a special kind of template" (like for the bounce of a cannon), or somesuch. But it does not, so you do not. Last but not least, the Goblin does not function like a template. The whole point of a template is to determine how many individual models are hit. In the case of the Doom Diver, just as in the case of the cannon's grapeshot, the Goblin affects the whole unit, not individual models. The fact that it is fired by a stonethrower does not make it a template.
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on Jun 7, 2019 17:32:23 GMT
How would you handle the hits on a ridden monster/rider then if you don't randomize as for a template? Would they both take D6 hits?
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Post by Horace on Jun 7, 2019 17:48:12 GMT
How would you handle the hits on a ridden monster/rider then if you don't randomize as for a template? Would they both take D6 hits? The point is for a template you don't randomize. It would be d6 each as per the standard rules
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Jun 7, 2019 18:32:03 GMT
The unit takes D6 hits, so you'd randomize it as per shooting. The Doom Diver rules specifically say that the Doom Diver isn't a template, and they continue that when they say that any units hit by the Doom Diver 'model', not Doom Diver 'template'. In the rules for firing a Stone Thrower it never says that hitting a ridden monster hits both the ride and the monster, the only place where that is mentioned is in the ridden monster rules where it says if it's hit by a template both are hit. Since the Doom Diver is not a template, that rule would never come into play.
Saying the Doom Diver is a template because it has a base and that determines hits is wrong. The rules for a cannon ball explicitly say that it is a "special kind of template." The rules for a Doom Diver explicitly say that "no template is used." There is no equivalency or comparison to be made there, the rules state in the case of the Cannon that it is a template and in the case of a Doom Diver that it is not a template.
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on Jun 7, 2019 19:07:16 GMT
Gotcha.
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