Chariots and fast cav rule

It's a very interesting question. RAW from the FAQ it actually appears to me that they would get Fast Cavalry. It seems very much like an oversight to me, though, and I definitely don't think that was intended.


Tiranoc Chariots would actually not get Vanguard, Elven Steeds do not have Fast Cavalry. The only two models I know of in the game that would get it would be Goblin Wolf Chariots and Scourgerunner Chariots.

What crownprinceimrik says. The argument that the chariot is the mount, not the ‘horse/beast' is invalid: while the chariot as a whole is the mount for a character, the chariot itself has mounts too. So, if the mounts of the chariot have the Fast Cavalry special rule, the whole chariot model has it; and, thus, if a character uses such a chariot as mount, the whole model of character + chariot will have it too.

Unfortunately the rule is actually quite explicitly clear here.

The Goblin Wolf Chariot is drawn by two Giant Wolves. If you look up a Giant Wolf in the O&G book, the Giant Wolf has the 'Fast Cavalry' special rule. The FAQ says 'Add "If the mount has the Fast Cavalry special rule, then the whole model has it." to the list of exceptions.' on page 82. The Chariot rules say:
'Just as with cavalry, we assume that special rules that apply to the mounts do not normally also apply to the chariot or its crew, and vice versa. Remember though that there are exceptions, as detailed under the rules for cavalry (see page 82)."

The exceptions on page 82 therefore apply to chariots as well as cavalry. The FAQ says that the exceptions on Page 82 includes Fast Cavalry applying to the whole model. Therefore, like I said, the rule is actually very clear that the Goblin Wolf Chariot definitely does get Fast Cavalry.

I definitely agree, as I stated above, that it seems like a completely unintentional rule and I sincerely doubt that this was the anticipated result, but nevertheless it is the result. I compare it to the Ogre Kingdoms book where the designers explicitly said that they had not intended Slaughtermasters to be able to take magic armor when they gave them the option for Ironfists, but the rules allow it and they accepted that oversight in the Ogre Kingdom FAQ.

As to why it hasn't come up before, how many people actually use Goblin Chariots or Scourgerunner Chariots? And of those people how many would think to look at the rules for the steeds and then even think to check if Fast Cavalry applied because it seems so far-fetched? Just because it hasn't come up before doesn't mean that it's wrong.

I should also point out that this Erratum (not FAQ) dates from the very first Update Version of 2010. So, the Daemons of Chaos AB does not have to mention it, because it is already in the BRB. The fact that the AB specifies that the Poisoned Attacks only apply to the steeds is neither here nor there. As I have remarked numerous times before: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. Sometimes GW will specifically and superfluously state that normal rules apply, but from that one cannot draw any inference other than that normal rules apply. For instance, the Emperor's Herald special rule of Ludwig Schwarzhelm specifies that "he must be your army's Battle Standard Bearer. Ludwig Schwarzhelm can never be your army's General." Here too, the last sentence specifically, but superfluously, states that the normal rule applies. You cannot conclude from this superfluous statement that other BSB characters can be the General, because their special rules do not specifically exclude it - for that, their rules must specifically state that the normal rule does not apply and that they actually can be the General.

I fail to see why. It may not agree with your assumptions about chariots, but one can hardly call it dumb, let alone the dumbest.

I thought that Chariots' profiles listed all the special rules specific to that unit in their entry? So for example in the Orc Boar Chariot, it lists "Tusker Charge (War Boars only)", whereas the Goblin Wolf Chariot does not list Fast Cavalry.

The special rules listed for the profile of the Giant Wolf include "Fast Cavalry", but that's in the Character Mounts section - so only applies if a character takes a Giant Wolf as a mount. That's also why Goblin Wolf Riders have "Fast Cavalry" listed under their rules, rather than assuming it is drawn from the Giant Wolf Character Mount profile.

sedge : That is a good point. For the objection to be valid, one must indeed assume (as you do) that there would be a difference between the same mounts listed in the character section and elsewhere.

Note, however, that, as so often, GW has not exactly adhered to a uniform approach.
- Some Army Lists specifically call them "Character Mounts," others simply "Mounts."
- Sometimes they are given in the Lords Category, and sometimes in the Heroes Category. Sometimes it is made explicit that this applies to both categories, sometimes not.
- In various ABs, there is a separate section to describe the mounts for characters, which, however, in cases where they are used by non-character units, then refers to the relevant unit description.

I will have to look deeper into that, and, perhaps, change my position.