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Post by timbotheking on Jul 26, 2019 0:33:48 GMT
Hi all. Me and my brother had a situation come up the other day that we could not agree on, so we were hoping to get your opinion. I had a depleted unit of chaos warriors fighting a horde of zombies. My footprint was larger which allowed his vargulf to charge in to the melee. I attacked first and killed lots of zombies. When his vargulf attacked he killed enough warriors to leave me with only my command left. The vargulf was left with nothing to stomp on after killing the only warrior he was in base contact with, which assumedly means he is out of combat and is not able to thunder stomp. If this is true does he not have to take a break test or crumble? The relevant entries I could find was pg 60 "all units on the defeated side must take a break test" but then on pg 61 under no more foes it states that "the model is out combat for all purposes. Please help. Is there a faq that we may have missed?
As always thanks for your time.
Timm
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 26, 2019 7:18:54 GMT
Since your unit still exists, the Vargulf remains engaged, but not in base contact. In this case, you would simply nudge the Vargulf into base contact with the Chaos Warriors. Alternatively, the Chaos Warriors could be nudged. Only if neither is possible, the "No More Foes" rule would come into play, and the Vargulf would end up out of combat.
BRB p. 61: "Occasionally, a situation can arise when one or more units are no longer in base contact with the enemy, but at least part of the enemy unit is still alive. [...] Whenever a unit becomes stranded in this manner, the attacking unit is immediately nudged (by as small an amount as possible) to bring it back into contact with the foe. This move cannot be used to alter the facing the attacker is in base contact with, nor is it an opportunity to change the attacker's formation or charge a unit not engaged in the fight. If the attacker cannot be moved in this manner, then the defending unit is moved instead."
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Post by timbotheking on Jul 26, 2019 21:28:34 GMT
Thank you very much! This is still the case even though it would take some of the zombies out of base contact?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 27, 2019 7:19:09 GMT
In principle, one cannot take any models that are in CC out of CC, and it may well be that the Vargulf ends out of combat. However, if that is not satisfactory to both players, they can always agree on an ad hoc solution that would keep a stranded unit in CC, while mimimising any disruption to the rules. It is difficult to be more specific without knowing what the actual situation and position of the units and models is.
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Post by timbotheking on Jul 28, 2019 17:57:43 GMT
ibb.co/RH9XH1Q I made a crude picture to demonstrate. After the blue vargulf attacks into the red warriors, they were down to only command. Thus leaving the vargulf out of base contact. To nudge them over to make contact might take them out of contact with a zombie or two. If this is an accepted way to do it then i think we would both be fine with that. I was just wondering if there is an explicit way the rules say to handle this situation. As the defender (woc) it was good because the vargulf didn't get to Tstomp but then bad because he did not have to crumble. Because although the vargulf did some wounds the warriors killed significantly more zombies and won the combat by 4. This would be very bad for the vargulf if he had to crumble. Although if he was allowed to stomp then he probably would have mitigated his crumble slightly. This is what caused us the confusion . Thanks again for your time. Timm
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Post by timbotheking on Jul 28, 2019 17:58:49 GMT
Also I'm sorry if the image is too terrible. M. C. S. Standing for musician, champ, standard.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2019 20:19:07 GMT
Not at all, the picture seems clear enough. This situation is not covered explicitly by the BRB, nor does the BRB define what is meant by nudge. Therefore the solution I would propose here is not 100% covered by the rules. It is clear, that you cannot nudge the Vargulf into contact, because that would mean you need to move the zombies too, which is not allowed by any rule. However, if you nudge (slide)) the Chaos Warriors somewhat to the left, bringing the musician into corner to corner contact with the Vargulf, this would bring the Vargulf back into base contact, while all zombies that had been in CC would still remain in CC (because of the different base size).
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Post by vulcan on Jul 31, 2019 0:53:49 GMT
There are two ways to handle it.
1) Nudge the surviving Chaos Warriors into corner contact with the Vargulf.
2) The Vargulf makes a flank charge on the Chaos Warriors on the VC's next turn, as over half of the model is in the CW's flank but the Vargulf can still see the CW's musician.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 31, 2019 8:34:12 GMT
Based on the picture, it does not look that 2) would work. If you assume the Vargulf is out of combat, you would have to nudge it 1" away from the Zombies, and the Chaos Warriors would not be in its arc of sight any longer.
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Post by vulcan on Jul 31, 2019 17:28:18 GMT
Based on the picture, it does not look that 2) would work. If you assume the Vargulf is out of combat, you would have to nudge it 1" away from the Zombies, and the Chaos Warriors would not be in its arc of sight any longer. Excellent point, my mistake. |
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 1, 2019 11:41:53 GMT
Let’s say you don’t nudge. Is it correct to assume that the Varg gulf do not stomp and is not part of combat resolution; break test/reform/crumble and so on?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 1, 2019 14:42:28 GMT
If you cannot bring the Vargulf back into CC, then it cannot Stomp. However, any earlier Wounds it may have caused in CC will count towards CR, and thus also towards anything affected by CR.
BRB p. 61: Such units are out of combat for all purposes and can move normally from then on. Any combat result points that unit would have added to the fight for wounds inflicted are still counted for the fight's overall combat resolution, but other bonuses, such as standards, charges and so on, are not. Note that such a unit cannot cancel out steadfast in an enemy.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 14, 2019 21:31:08 GMT
Let’s say you don’t nudge. Is it correct to assume that the Varg gulf do not stomp and is not part of combat resolution; break test/reform/crumble and so on? Yes, while the wounds caused by the Varghulf will count for the combat resolution in the combat between the zombies/warriors the Varghulf will no longer be a pat of the combat. If the Varghulf can't thunderstomp it will certainly not crumble to death! |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 15, 2019 9:44:45 GMT
That is correct. If it had not been clear enough from my earlier post: the Vargulf itself would not be affected, but its combat result points would still affect CR (and anything CR related like crumble) of the Zombies.
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