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Post by gregr on Aug 6, 2019 20:52:23 GMT
Hi all,
I've been playing round with an Empire 1800pts army list that I can use my Empire-like Dogs of War stuff for. I'm thinking about possibly getting the rest painted up in time for Riotville next year for something different to my usual Dwarves if I can find a list that takes my fancy!
As ever folks, please let me know what you think!
++ Standard (Empire - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.2.) [1,800pts] ++
+ Uncategorised +
- Army Size: Army (0-2999 points)
+ Heroes +
Battle Wizard [140pts]: Wizard Level 2
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll, BRB - Talisman of Protection
Captain of the Empire [135pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Light Armour
. Magic Items: AB - Armour of Meteoric Iron
Captain of the Empire [108pts]: Full Plate Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Ogre Blade
Warrior Priest [124pts]: Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: AB - Van Horstmann's Speculum
. Warhorse
+ Core +
Halberdiers [293pts]: Champion, 38x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
. Archers: 5x Archers
Handgunners [90pts]: 10x Handgunners
Knightly Orders [250pts]: Champion, 10x Knightly Orders, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
+ Special +
Great Cannon [120pts]
Greatswords [305pts]: Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
Outriders [115pts]: Musician, 5x Outriders
+ Rare +
Helblaster Volley Gun [120pts]
++ Total: 1800 pts
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Post by Naitsabes on Aug 6, 2019 22:22:16 GMT
decent rounded list. I like it. I would drop a few bodies from the halberdiers to upgrade the captain to a lord for juicy Ld9.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 6, 2019 22:41:52 GMT
Assuming the list is mainly determined by the models you have, here are some random remarks:
Little point in giving the Wizard the ToPr. It is just 15 points, but points better spent elsewhere, perhaps on the Ruby Ring of Ruin (in particular if you take a Fire Wizard). If you can field 10 Archers, you could put him in there, to benefit from the Skirmisher special rule.
Equally, the AoMI is far too expensive. Give your BSB full plate armour, shield and Dragonhelm, or just Enchanted Shield for a 2+ AS. Drop the second Captain: this would allow you better options, for instance to upgrade your Wizard to lvl 4, or a Master Engineer for the HBVG.
Equip the WP for survival: shield instead of GW and Dragonhelm, or just Enchanted Shield (depending on the equipment of the BSB). Give the warhorse barding.
I assume the WP is going with the Knights? Consider upgrading the Knights to IC with the Standard of Discipline.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 7, 2019 18:33:58 GMT
I agree with pretty much all that has been stated already, BUT...
1) I'd swap out the Talisman of Protection for the Opal Amulet. It's a I use item, but your wizard shouldn't be hit all that often in a bunker - OF ARCHERS - and a 4++ is far more useful. Which leads me to my second point.
2) Try to take Archers instead of Handgunners. You mentioned that you were wanting to use some of your DoW models, and I'm assuming that you have some Ironsides from DoW, and that was your reason for choosing Handgunners, but Archers make for a much better, cheaper bunker due to their skirmish rule.
3) What is your reasoning for taking a second Captain? I'm not saying that it's a bad choice, but he needs to have a purpose. Otherwise, you might be better off Fielding more Warrior Priests and spreading out the hatered.
4) Definitely upgrade the Knights to Inner Circle. They will probably be your strongest unit. Max them out.
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Post by gregr on Aug 7, 2019 20:05:36 GMT
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I was toying between archers and hand gunners. I can field both quite happily but hadn't thought about using archers as a skirmish bunker for the wizard so went with the armour piercing instead!
I went with two captains purely for one to act as a general as I thought that they may be a little tougher and a bit cheaper than Warrior Priests and in 1800pts I didn't really think that a full general figure was the most cost efficient!
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Post by gregr on Aug 8, 2019 6:54:36 GMT
So I've had a bit of a rejig based on the above.
I think with this list I would use mounted WP in the Knights and the other in the Greatswords to make their attacks count. BSB into the halberdiers in horde formation to try and keep them in the fight a bit longer. I also thought about the WP on foot as the general?
I had toyed with lord options but I thought they were too expensive in an 1800pts list with only a 475ish pts limits for characters and it would mean I'd probably have to drop a character and some models from a unit to fit them in.
++ Standard (Empire - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.2.) [1,797pts] ++
+ Uncategorised +
- Army Size: Army (0-2999 points)
+ Heroes +
Battle Wizard [140pts]: Wizard Level 2
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll, BRB - Talisman of Protection
Captain of the Empire [136pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Ogre Blade
Warrior Priest [95pts]: Heavy Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Dragonhelm
. Warhorse: Barding
Warrior Priest [84pts]: Heavy Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Sword of Striking
+ Core +
Archers [70pts]: 10x Archers
Halberdiers [317pts]: Champion, 42x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
. Archers: 5x Archers
Knightly Orders Inner Circle [295pts]: 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline
+ Special +
Great Cannon [120pts]
Greatswords [305pts]: Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
Outriders [115pts]: Musician, 5x Outriders
+ Rare +
Helblaster Volley Gun [120pts]
++ Total: [1,797pts] ++
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 8, 2019 11:39:38 GMT
If you use the Standard of Discipline, it should be in the unit with the General. This will add +1 to the Inspiring Presence bubble, from which all units could benefit, not just the one with the standard. So, if you use the WP on foot as General, the question is where you want to put him. If you put him in the Greatswords, they can take a Magic Standard. Unfortunately, the Halberdiers cannot. And, since he is the General, he should be the one equipped for survival.
Note that one lvl 4 Wizard Lord (and 1 WP) would be far more powerfull than having two WPs. You could even shave enough points elsewhere to give him the Talisman of Preservation.
You should use the Archers as Detachments. It does not cost anything, and they will be able to use the benefits of the Detachment rule.
Weapons: it is good to have magical weapons in case you have to face Ethereals or some such. But almost all our characters have a supporting role, for which they must survive. Killing something is just a bonus: nice, but not necessary. Therefore, you should choose weapons that enhance survival - which are cheaper too! Such weapons are the Shrieking Blade, the Gold Sigil Sword, the Tormentor Sword, the Warrior Bane, the Fencer's Blades, or the Sword of Swift Slaying,
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Post by gregr on Dec 16, 2019 15:52:17 GMT
Thanks for this mate. I've been having a think about what you said about survivability of characters rather than tankiness. I'm going to have a think about how to do an 1800pts list and will play test some ideas.
But I've put together 2500pts that I have models for at the moment based on what you guys have said that is based around a number of cheap supporting characters.
+ Lords +
Arch Lector [190pts]: Light Armour
. Magic Items: AB - Armour of Meteoric Iron, BRB - Ogre Blade
Battle Wizard Lord [270pts]: Lore of Life, Wizard Level 4
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll, BRB - Talisman of Preservation
+ Heroes +
Captain of the Empire [123pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Might
Master Engineer [65pts]
Warrior Priest [129pts]: Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Ruby Ring of Ruin, BRB - Sword of Battle
. Warhorse
Warrior Priest [82pts]: Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Biting Blade, BRB - Charmed Shield
+ Core +
Halberdiers [363pts]: Champion, 38x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
. Archers: 10x Archers
. Archers: 5x Archers
Knightly Orders Inner Circle [295pts]: 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Swiftness
+ Special +
Demigryph Knights [307pts]: Halberd, 4x Inner Circle Knight
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Razor Standard
Great Cannon [120pts]
Greatswords [320pts]: 25x Greatswords
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline
Outriders [115pts]: Musician, 5x Outriders
+ Rare +
Helblaster Volley Gun [120pts]
++ Total: [2,499pts] ++
Thinking AL into the Greatswords for the bubble form Standard of Discipline. WPs into the knights and halberdiers. BSB into the Halberdiers and Wizard into the archers. Engineer with the HBVG.
What are your thoughts folks?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 16, 2019 17:14:21 GMT
I am no fan of giving the DGK a standard bearer. If the unit breaks from combat, he will be auto-destroyed: that is an extra 68 points down the drain for nothing [113 points with the Razor Standard]. If you insist,take at least the Gleaming Pennant, which may offer a bit of help. Likewise, I would stick with the lance and shield. The riders are really there to provide the 1+ AS, the mounts will do the killing.
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Post by Naitsabes on Dec 16, 2019 17:23:12 GMT
I think the ogre blade on the AL shows you haven't completely embraced the way of the Empire. The rest of the characters show you are almost there though  lance/shield on the demigryphs is clear cut the better outfit. You are being very gently to your opponents with halberds. The standard can go either way. 4 with is not a bad setup. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 16, 2019 17:38:56 GMT
To add: the DGK mounts have the Armour Piercing rule already. So, the Razor Standard is rather wasted.
On a side note: while the DGK are one of our best units, there are various enemy units out there which are (much) better. Don't expect to win in a one-on-one, toe-to-toe (hoof to hoof?) fight with those. Inversely, don't get the DGK stuck in a fight with units that are inferior, but likely to occupy them for ages, because of steadfast, Unbreakable or whatnot. As with all our units, it is about synergy and mutual support: the DGK shine brightest in an anvil-hammer combination.
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Post by 1plussave on Dec 16, 2019 18:35:45 GMT
I'd trade the Ogre Blade out for Van Horstmann's Speculum on the Arch Lector, its where it really shines. His low number of attacks doesn't take great advantage of the Ogre Blades strength bonus, whereas VHS is great for the return on his own poor statistics, stealing a Daemon Princes statline and factoring in your own Hatred rerolls to boot is one of the most fun moments you will have.
My preferred Arch Lector on foot is one with the White Cloak of Ulric, Heavy Armour and an Enchanted Shield with Van Horstmann's Speculum. Though the Talisman of Preservation makes an okay substitute for the Cloak.
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Post by gregr on Dec 17, 2019 5:25:07 GMT
Cheers as ever guys!
I completely forgot I'd put the Razor Standard on the DGK! I put it on the checked their rules and realised the mounts are already AP!
I think I overlooked the VHS on the AL. I went with the Ogre Blade as I'm notoriously bad at rolling high (ask Knoffles or Bluke!) So I tried to give myself an good chance at wounding. I'll look at VHS instead though as I agree it will generally be a better choice. Saying that, watch out for the first BatRep where my AL swaps stats with a goblin....🤣
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Post by gregr on Dec 17, 2019 5:30:07 GMT
So I've had yet another think! From the money saved on the Razor standard and DGK standard, I could get another 2 out riders and another archer.
+ Lords +
Arch Lector [195pts]: Light Armour
. Magic Items: AB - Armour of Meteoric Iron, AB - Van Horstmann's Speculum, BRB - Tormentor Sword
Battle Wizard Lord [270pts]: Lore of Life, Wizard Level 4
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll, BRB - Talisman of Preservation
+ Heroes +
Captain of the Empire [123pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Sword of Might
Master Engineer [65pts]
Warrior Priest [129pts]: Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Ruby Ring of Ruin, BRB - Sword of Battle
. Warhorse
Warrior Priest [82pts]: Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Biting Blade, BRB - Charmed Shield
+ Core +
Halberdiers [370pts]: Champion, 38x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
. Archers: 10x Archers
. Archers: 6x Archers
Knightly Orders Inner Circle [295pts]: 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Swiftness
+ Special +
Demigryph Knights [252pts]: Champion, 4x Inner Circle Knight, Lance, Musician
Great Cannon [120pts]
Greatswords [320pts]: 25x Greatswords
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline
Outriders [157pts]: Musician, 7x Outriders
+ Rare +
Helblaster Volley Gun [120pts]
++ Total: [2,498pts] ++
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 17, 2019 17:26:20 GMT
Yes, it is a bit of a drag that in the 8th edition, you have to use the speculum in a challenge. Most of our heirlooms got nerfed and/or increased in price, with the notable exceptions of the Runefang and the Helm of the Skavenslayer. But remember: while you are obliged to use the speculum in a challenge, you are not obliged to use the Arch Lector. Against too powerful/too weak an opponent, you can always use the champion (if available).
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