Tubis
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Posts: 228
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Post by Tubis on Aug 20, 2019 15:28:09 GMT
Right!
So with my greenskins finally reaching a point where I no longer feel obliged to add anything new, it's time for a fresh start.
Back in 5th edition when I started getting into warhammer, my original army were the mighty undead. I could never go back to them after they were split into VC and TK. Fortunately I kept my minis and even managed to add a bit of stuff, even though I haven't played a single game with them in 6th, 7th or 8th.
I've been recently trying to put together a small list to get myself started. Here's what I've come up with:
Vampire lvl2 heavy armour, enchanted shield talisman of endurance
Wight King barded skeletal steed, great weapon Dragonhelm
40 skeleton warriors spears, full cmd
9 black knights barding, lances, musician and sb
5 dire wolves
Varghulf
Total: 998 points
The idea is that the vampire goes with the skellies (who either go wide or deep depending on the match up), buffs them up and raises as they go down. Black knights with wight king and the varghulf go around the flanks. Doggies on chaff duties.
I know the vampire's setup is poor. I'd love to replace him with a lvl3 master necro, or just turn him into something useful but no idea how yet. I have a bunch of other stuff, but mosty older models (black coach, old carrion, zombies, something like 30 different old metal wights, wraiths, banshees, necros etc.).
I might organsie a small 1-day event for my friends in the future, would be nice to have a list that I could build towards.
Anyways would love to hear any and all advice!
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Post by sedge on Aug 20, 2019 18:20:05 GMT
If you'd prefer to play your undead unified, you could go down the Undead Legions route from End Times: Nagash. If you do, that opens up some really good options (such as Skeleton Archers as a wizard bunker).
Also, are you playing End Times 50% Lords/Heroes points allowances? I think your Heroes are over the traditional 25% limit.
It's a good list, but as you say the Vampire is poor. Unfortunately that's a general problem with Hero level Vampires who are far too vulnerable for their expensive points cost and given how crucial they are to your army. If you're set on using it, the Nightshroud is decent protection (with a regular shield and heavy armour, you'll have a 3+ save and most incoming attacks won't be above S4 at most), but the old favourite combo of Enchanted Shield + Talisman of Preservation is best, for a solid 3+/4++. It's worth spending more on his survival, even if that means dropping a few Skellies, as his current save is just a bit short of what you need for a 2 wound, toughness 4 character whose death results in the rest of your army crumbling.
A Necromancer is a better option, but you shouldn't stick one in a unit like Skeleton Warriors who're going to be getting into combat. I quite like Corpse Carts as mounts for them - they can trundle along behind the skellies, buffing them, but against shooting armies you won't last. Otherwise, the best bet is a cheap bunker of Zombies that you can increase in size as the game goes on (or a Skeleton Archer unit if you use Undead Legions).
I think the list overall is fine, but I'd suggest replacing the Vampire with a level 2 Necromancer, possibly with Master of the Dead, and a 20 Zombie bunker. You will likely have to cut the Skeleton Warrior unit down (and possibly ditch a Black Knight or two) but hopefully can throw enough at Invocation of Nehek to increase both the Zombies and Skeletons well above their starting size.
Having said that, your current list is probably more fun though riskier.
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Post by Horace on Aug 21, 2019 10:02:05 GMT
I would personally trim the Skeletons and Dire Wolves and nab some (20ish) Zombies which can be grown. Keep your core minimal. I think Vampires are a little too expensive at 1000 points, you almost have to sacrifice the additional magic level you can get with a Necro or buy yourself some protection because they are getting too pricey, and that further reduces your points.
Special is where your main fighting units are ie Black Knights and Grave Guard (Wights). You could try and squeeze in a small unit of GG, then in the Rare category you have several viable options if you choose to use them (or you could go all in on Special). Varghulfs will be problematic for people to deal with at 1000 points, same for Black Coaches. Wraiths are another unit you could opt for, it gives people the Ethereal headache which they may not have catered for properly at 1000 points.
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Tubis
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Posts: 228
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Post by Tubis on Aug 22, 2019 11:17:37 GMT
Thanks for the input guys! sedge Yeah, it looks like the army builder version I am using has the 50% characters limit set as a default. I feel it's gonna be tricky to make VC work otherwise at a small point level. How would I fit a lord in a 1000 points is beyond me! The undead list is an option, I did tinker with it a bit. But the amount of combos is so insane I just gave up after a while. Choice paralysis! Plus the "no crumbling" rule is OP as hell. Would need to talk this through with an opponent first, maybe just house rule it away. Although I am deffinietly going to have a look at it in the future - I have some skeleton archers, horsemen and the old bony chariots, that I would love to use at some point. Plus using a Tomb King for WS5 skellies is just too cool not to try. I see what you are saying with the necromancer. Although I think with just a single invocation and two spells in total it's going to be immensly difficult to increase the zombie/skellie numbers right? I mean the opponent has to just shut down one spell. Plus I feel that a zombie bunker sitting in the back is a bit of a waste at such a small points level. I haven't got a corpse cart sadly (might convert one in the future). However my main issue is the skellie regiment. I think like they need a character to be anything more than a tarpit. I mean, they aren't going to kill much by themselves right? That would leave me with two tarpits (zombies, skellies), one chaff unit and two heavy hitters. Maybe I could make this work...deffinietly gonna try out the tankier vampire setup with talisman of preservation/enchanted shield too! Horace I have grave guard, but I'd rather not put them in the list initially - the old metals are quite intricate and painting something like 20 of them right at the start would probably discourage me. The plan is to get the skeletons and horsies airbrushed and then shaded with the new contrast paints. Hopefully this will allow me to take my time with the wight riders and the heroes, without the whole process taking X years to accomplish. Wraiths are a cool idea, love the models. What about wraith heroes? Are they worth it in any way? Here's an alternative list I've come up with, that includes a necro+zombies and a wraith hero to go with the skeletons (no doggos though): Necromancer Lvl2 Talisman of endurance Master of the Dead Wight King Lance, shield, barded steed Wraith hero 30 skeleton warriors spears, shields, full cmd 20 zombies musician 9 Black Kinghts lances, barding musician, standard Varghulf
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Aug 22, 2019 11:38:19 GMT
I've fought a VC list that ran a Level 4 Necromancer in 1000 points with a dispel scroll or sometimes a 4+ ward. The Necromancer sat at the back in a small bunker and was pretty much safe. It was very potent in magic, but it is a lot of points to be risking on a single model and on magic. Can work, but can be risky.
I'll also say that including Ethereals in 1000 points is mean. That same opponent ran 5 Hexwraiths. I only had a level 2 wizard that he could easily shut down the magic missiles on and my elves were MSU, so they didn't have the static combat res to beat him. So I brought a Frostheart for the magical attacks, which can solo almost anything in a 1000 VC list. We then made a gentlemans agreement to not bring Wraiths or Frosthearts in 1000 points as I couldn't kill the Wraiths without a Frosty and he couldn't kill the Frosty.
I think your list now looks pretty solid. The Varghulf will be tough for most people to kill and the Black Knights with the Wight will hit pretty hard. The Necromancer is decent, but I'd not take Master of the Dead. With a single Level 2 in 1000 points, your opponent will almost always be able to stop Invocation if they want to, unless you miscast it, but miscasting is disastrous to VC in most situations. Those points could be used to make the Wight King hit a bit harder/survive longer or to buy a champion for your Black Knights.
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Tubis
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Posts: 228
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Post by Tubis on Aug 23, 2019 10:27:28 GMT
Ooof. A level 4 and hexwraiths in a 1000 points list? That is a level of gorgonzola I am not quite aiming at! You face some demanding opponents sir.
I did follow your advice and ditched Master of the Dead. Just some slight changes to the list (added the champion and the dragonhelm back). Here's where we are at:
Necromancer Lvl 2 Talisman of endurance
Wight King Dragonhelm Barded steed, great weapon
Wraith
9 Black Knights Barding, lances, full command
30 skeleton warriors Spears, Full command
20 zombies Full command
Varghulf
Total: 999 points.
I could swap out the banner in the zombie unit for 2 more corpses and end up with an exact 1000 point list.
So, seems I have two lists to playtest. The first one is basically unchanged, aside from swapping out the 5 + ward for a 4+ and dropping a couple of skellies. Both seem interesting, with the original one being more aggresive and the second one a bit more deffensive.
My hands are itching to roll some dice, hope I will be able to set up a game some time soon and report how it went. Thanks all!
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Tubis
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Posts: 228
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Post by Tubis on Sept 13, 2019 15:02:27 GMT
So I've managed to get the 2 games in already (woohoo), by bugging my brother enough.
Both games were against his Skaven, we did not fancy VC mirror matches (his other army).
His first list was pretty tough. A combat-oriented warlord, lvl 2 warlock, 30 stormvermin, 28 plague monks 35 clanrats and a doomwheel.
I got lucky in early game and took out the doomwheel with the black knights. Unfortunately they could not restrain and pursued it off the table. It's really weird that immune to psychology does not exempt you from restrain checks. Meanwhile a lucky crack's call took my varghulf out turn 2. That stung. From there onwards it was an uphill struggle. The vampire and his skeleton friends beat off the stormvermin, but took the clanrat brick in their flank. Meanwhile the returning black knights could not avoid the plague monks and were cut down to a wight. The stormvermin rallied and hit the skeletons in the face, crumbling them to death along with the vampire.
Second time I faced a softer list. This time a lvl2 plague priest, 40 plague monk horde, 25 clanrats, 40 spear clanrants and the doomwheel again.
This time luck was on my side. His wizard miscast early and lost all his levels, handing me magic superiority. I've managed to manouver the black knights so that they took out the domwheel again. Plague monks obliterated my 30 skellies with wraith , but it was all they got as I carefully denied them any good charges later on. The varghulf was a menace, wrecking clanrats and even eating his general at some point. In the end I only lost the skellies plus wraith and managed to kill or chase off all but the plague monks.
Both lists were really fun. The only problem with the second one, is that realistically I have to jump the necro out of his zombie bunker at some point. I need them tarpiting, I don't have enough units otherwise. If he rolls raise dead - I'm golden. If not....I have to pray that the enemy does not have magic missiles, or shooting or he's toast.
I am leaning more towards the Vampire list right now, as it is a bit faster to paint too (lots and lots of bones). When I take this list to 1250 or 1500, the zombies and necro will be a must anyways, so might as well add them later. We'll see.
I have another game coming up next week, but this time 2000 points against elves (helping a friend prepare for a tournament).
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