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Post by strutsagget on Sept 12, 2019 13:20:15 GMT
I am trying to find out when to resolve the attribute and when to resolve the miscast/order.
Am I as controlling player allowed to choose order or is there any rules in BRB that states what goes first if I use lore of shadow and gets a miscast.
Example I want to swap a BSB in a unit of eternal guard with a lore of shadow weaver in a unit of glade scouts.
But a miscast with small or large temple will wipe out more models if i swap first.
Both seems to be saying after the spell but the attribute says immediately so i guess attribute goes first.
“SMOKE AND MIRRORS (Lore Attribute)
Shadow Wizards are masters of illusion and displacement, able to melt away into the mist as if they had never been there at all. Their spells often have minor cantrips of teleportation woven into the larger sorcery, unnoticed and unseen by the enemy.
After a spell from the Lore of Shadow is successfully cast and resolved, the casting Wizard can choose to immediately swap places with a friendly character of the same troop type anywhere within 18".”
Excerpt From
WARHAMMER RULEBOOK
Games Workshop Ltd
“IRRESISTIBLE FORCE
If two or more 6s are rolled when casting a spell, it has been cast with irresistible force. The spell will be cast automatically and cannot be dispelled, but the Wizard has to roll on the Miscast table when the spell has been resolved.”
Excerpt From
WARHAMMER RULEBOOK
Games Workshop Ltd
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Post by gregr on Sept 16, 2019 17:42:28 GMT
I may be wrong but I assumed the miscast was resolved last??
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 16, 2019 17:51:25 GMT
I may be wrong but I assumed the miscast was resolved last?? Probably correct but I am trying to find it in the brb. |
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Post by gregr on Sept 16, 2019 18:14:10 GMT
It makes the most logical sense. The wizard casts, spell goes off, wizard over does it and then miscast.
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Post by ryryak2 on Sept 16, 2019 19:42:10 GMT
You fully resolve the spell, including lore attributes, and THEN you resolve the miscast. I'll get a page number for you here in a minute.
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Post by ryryak2 on Sept 16, 2019 19:52:08 GMT
Here's the best I could do:
pg 34: - "When irresistible force occurs, first resolve the effect of the spell that the Wizard was attempting to cast....once the effect of the spell has been resolved, the Wizard now needs to roll..."
pg 498: - "after a spell from the lore of shadows IS SUCCESSFULLY CAST AND RESOLVED" (emphasis mine)
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 16, 2019 19:53:30 GMT
Here's the best I could do: pg 34: - "When irresistible force occurs, first resolve the effect of the spell that the Wizard was attempting to cast...." pg 498: - "after a spell from the lore of shadows IS SUCCESSFULLY CAST AND RESOLVED" (emphasis mine) Yes but where does it say attribute first and that attribute is part of the spell? |
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Post by ryryak2 on Sept 16, 2019 19:58:09 GMT
The attribute is part of "resolving the spell". "Once the effect of the spell has been resolved (this includes resolving the lore attribute) THEN you roll on the Miscast table.
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 16, 2019 20:01:28 GMT
The attribute is part of "resolving the spell". "Once the effect of the spell has been resolved (this includes resolving the lore attribute) THEN you roll on the Miscast table. Yes but I want the brb for that. |
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Post by ryryak2 on Sept 16, 2019 23:19:28 GMT
pg 498 Lore of Shadow: "After a spell from the lore of shadows has been successfully cast and resolved..."
That's your brb quote.
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 17, 2019 4:23:16 GMT
pg 498 Lore of Shadow: "After a spell from the lore of shadows has been successfully cast and resolved..." That's your brb quote. And that’s part of my initial post and it says AFTER so it goes against what you are saying as it is not part of the spell then. Miscast also says AFTER(when the spell has been resolved). |
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 17, 2019 6:20:06 GMT
The only snippet i can find is this part.
“LORE ATTRIBUTES
Some Lores of Magic, including those presented in this book have something called a ‘lore attribute’. This is essentially a grouping of one or more special rules that are applied to certain spells for that lore. A lore attribute might give certain spells an extra effect against a particular troop type, or alter the way a spell behaves. Regardless of the detail, a lore attribute only has an effect on spells from its own lore.”
Excerpt From
WARHAMMER RULEBOOK
Games Workshop Ltd
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 17, 2019 9:00:27 GMT
The general paragraph does not really help. As specified in their respective rules, different Lore Attributes take effect at different times. It can be:
- when the spell is being cast by the Wizard (Wildheart, Kindleflame)
- when the spell has been cast succesfully (Lifebloom)
- when the spell is being resolved (Metalshifting, Exorcism, Roiling Skies)
- after the spell has been resolved (Smoke and Mirrors, Life Leeching).
Note that, in the case of Kindleflame, it can even be much later in the same Magic phase (when a spell is being cast by another Wizard), and in the case of Roiling Skies, it can even be in another, much later Magic phase.
The relevant rules have already been quoted above:
BRB p. 498: "After a spell from the Lore of Shadow is successfully cast and resolved, the casting Wizard can choose to immediately swap places with a friendly character of the same troop type anywhere within 18"."
BRB p. 34: "When irresistible force occurs, first resolve the effect of the spell that the Wizard was attempting to cast. As the spell has been cast with irresistible force, the casting player can at least enjoy the effect of his spell before something almost indescribably bad happens to the Wizard and everyone nearby. Once the effect of the spell has been resolved, the Wizard now needs to roll 2D6 on the Miscast table to see what happens to him."
As far as I can tell, the BRb does not specifically state that the Lore Attribute as such is a spell effect, but it is indicated in the description of Roiling skies (BRB p. 497): "When a spell from the Lore of Heavens targets an enemy flying unit or a model with the Fly special rule, the target suffers , D6 Strength 4 hits, in addition to any other effects caused by the spell" (Italics mine).
Given that Smoke and Mirrors specifies that "the casting Wizard can choose to immediately swap places" (Italics mine), this indicates that it would occur before rolling on the Miscast table.
Of course, if one does not think this is explicit enough, one must then, indeed, refer to the sequencing rule (BRB p. 10): "occasionally you'll find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time[...]. Whenever this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order" (BRB p. 10). In which case, the result would be the same.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Sept 18, 2019 20:15:47 GMT
After sooo many years we're still debating rules. Ultimately, it's as you want to play it although I suggest that it's done in the spirit of the game and as intended if you believe it's vague. If necessary play devil’s advocate and see how you’d feel it being played that way against you.
In the cast of the lore of shadow you can choose whether to use the attribute of not and you can elect to do that after you’ve rolled the dice and determined whether or not you’ve got irresistible force or not.
I would like the spell to be cast, casualties wounds or what ever effect worked out. The attribute applied if it can be and then the miscast.
On a side not I think the miscast is done in a stupid order. Why roll to see if the casters hurt if directly afterwards he disappears down a hole?
I digress…. Now lore attributes obviously differ but if you were (in the case of Lore of shadows) resolve the spell, apply the miscast and then move the model I would question that.
Assuming that characters are usually put on the edge of a unit you’ll hit (20mm bases) 15 in a ranked unit or 6 in a skirmish unit. Your opponent will see what you’re doing and why. He may not call you a cheat but I can honestly say he won’t be pleased however you try to explain why you’ve done it in that order.
Just a thought…
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 18, 2019 20:25:46 GMT
After sooo many years we're still debating rules. Ultimately, it's as you want to play it although I suggest that it's done in the spirit of the game and as intended if you believe it's vague. If necessary play devil’s advocate and see how you’d feel it being played that way against you. In the cast of the lore of shadow you can choose whether to use the attribute of not and you can elect to do that after you’ve rolled the dice and determined whether or not you’ve got irresistible force or not. I would like the spell to be cast, casualties wounds or what ever effect worked out. The attribute applied if it can be and then the miscast. On a side not I think the miscast is done in a stupid order. Why roll to see if the casters hurt if directly afterwards he disappears down a hole? I digress…. Now lore attributes obviously differ but if you were (in the case of Lore of shadows) resolve the spell, apply the miscast and then move the model I would question that. Assuming that characters are usually put on the edge of a unit you’ll hit (20mm bases) 15 in a ranked unit or 6 in a skirmish unit. Your opponent will see what you’re doing and why. He may not call you a cheat but I can honestly say he won’t be pleased however you try to explain why you’ve done it in that order. Just a thought… Still not sure why you take rules discussing personal. All I asked for was help on where to find it in the rules. That’s why I thought we had a rules discussing thread to begin with. I also very clearly stated how I played it. I am more concerned about people stating “facts” without actually being able to support it in the rules. |
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