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Post by thorpyuk on Oct 8, 2022 7:47:25 GMT
Hi all,
90% sure that they can't, but it seems a bit of an odd situation if that is the case- mounted gunners that can't shoot from horseback- have I got that correct?
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Post by DiscoQing on Oct 8, 2022 7:48:40 GMT
Correct - but they do have good range.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 8, 2022 9:46:19 GMT
Historically, mounted units with rifles (not pistols!) were generally mounted infantry, i.e. they used the horse to move into position, and then dismounted to fire. Shooting a rifle on horseback and hit something is extremely difficult, and would normally only be done, if there is no time to dismount. That seems to be reflected in the rules: a Sharpshooter with a repeater handgun (which has the Move or Fire special rule) cannot fire on the move; with a brace of pistols he can.
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Post by thorpyuk on Oct 8, 2022 15:24:17 GMT
Fair enough, thanks chaps..
Any Empire generals have any tips/hints on the use of pistoliers/outriders? Are they worth it?
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 8, 2022 16:01:38 GMT
Roll them into cover using their Vanguard where they can shoot at things over the course of 3 turns at least without danger of being shot back at. Only move them as a sacrifice, if they run out of targets or if you can get completely behind enemy lines and out of return fire range. The Champion is a straight upgrade to hit for 3 shots, his special weapons are often less impactful than just the increased hit ratio from BS5 on a repeater. 4 BS5 pistol shots MAY have a use for a squad that finds itself moving as he can put four 4+ to hit shots at 12" range with no movement penalty while marching.
If they are the biggest threat, the most valuable target and within range of something they will be killed; use these sponge-armoured bullet magnets to your advantage.
For their cost they do all right if they aren't being picked off by fireballs and Skinks, like a Helblaster they can often use Archers as cover without themselves taking cover penalties if you are in a shootout with High Elves.
Pistoliers can chase down War Machines while being a pain in the ass, they do alright but compete for special points.
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Post by thorpyuk on Oct 9, 2022 6:51:08 GMT
Roll them into cover using their Vanguard where they can shoot at things over the course of 3 turns at least without danger of being shot back at. Only move them as a sacrifice, if they run out of targets or if you can get completely behind enemy lines and out of return fire range. The Champion is a straight upgrade to hit for 3 shots, his special weapons are often less impactful than just the increased hit ratio from BS5 on a repeater. 4 BS5 pistol shots MAY have a use for a squad that finds itself moving as he can put four 4+ to hit shots at 12" range with no movement penalty while marching. If they are the biggest threat, the most valuable target and within range of something they will be killed; use these sponge-armoured bullet magnets to your advantage. For their cost they do all right if they aren't being picked off by fireballs and Skinks, like a Helblaster they can often use Archers as cover without themselves taking cover penalties if you are in a shootout with High Elves. Pistoliers can chase down War Machines while being a pain in the ass, they do alright but compete for special points. Thanks 1plussave that's good info! I've barely used my Empire, but I find them hard to win with as they're so weak in combat! |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 9, 2022 9:17:16 GMT
The Empire is not that easy to play, because we do not have any death star or killer units/characters - it is all about combined arms and mutual support. Unfortunately, our state troops are not just weak, but also overcosted. However, while we do not have really great, we do have some very good units: - various units with +1 AS (and the DGK are arguably our best unit) - cannon & HBVG - the Steam Tank - most of our characters are weak in combat, but excel in their supporting role Having access to all the eight lores of magic is nothing to be sneered at either. A look here and here may give you some ideas. |
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Post by thorpyuk on Oct 9, 2022 10:16:21 GMT
The Empire is not that easy to play, because we do not have any death star or killer units/characters - it is all about combined arms and mutual support. Unfortunately, our state troops are not just weak, but also overcosted. However, while we do not have really great, we do have some very good units: - various units with +1 AS (and the DGK are arguably our best unit) - cannon & HBVG - the Steam Tank - most of our characters are weak in combat, but excel in their supporting role Having access to all the eight lores of magic is nothing to be sneered at either. A look here and here may give you some ideas. Thanks Fvon, in my meta, we don't play the magic phase, so i find playing empire even tougher! Those will be useful links, thanks. I did notice the points increase in empire troops from 7th to 8th edition, which I really don't get... they didn't seem to get anything to justify paying more per man! |
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Post by sonofkurnos on Oct 9, 2022 12:05:37 GMT
Wait wut??
You *don't* play the magic phase??
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Post by thegoat on Oct 9, 2022 12:56:43 GMT
Wait wut?? You *don't* play the magic phase?? We call them "dwarf players".  But seriously, I think not taking spell casters is a fairly common house rule. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 9, 2022 16:24:33 GMT
Thanks Fvon, in my meta, we don't play the magic phase, so i find playing empire even tougher! Yes, I should imagine that the Empire and Tomb Kings would be most negatively affected. Are the Dwarfs then allowed runic items? If so, they would gain the most. I did notice the points increase in empire troops from 7th to 8th edition, which I really don't get... they didn't seem to get anything to justify paying more per man! The general assumption is that the points were raised to pay for the additional "new and improved" Detachment rules. However, that means the Empire is paying for something it may not even use, and most Empire players (including myself) do not think that the "improvements" cover the costs, certainly not when you add in the nerfing of the old Detachment rules. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 9, 2022 16:33:00 GMT
To add: without a magic phase, I would try a heavy cavalry army list: units of Knights, Reiksguard and DGK, Pistoliers, Outriders, a Steam Tank (or more!), with one cannon and perhaps a HBVG.
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Post by thorpyuk on Oct 9, 2022 19:45:39 GMT
Yes, I should imagine that the Empire and Tomb Kings would be most negatively affected. Are the Dwarfs then allowed runic items? If so, they would gain the most. Sometimes I'm allowed them, sometimes not, and sometimes capped at 10% points value of army |
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 10, 2022 18:56:46 GMT
I will point out that Outriders do pretty good at killing T5 things through weight of fire, zoning out other fast cav by abusing their Vanguard to redeploy for best area cover can keep chaff out of your lines. Cavalry are where they usually see their best return, as they find both their range and -2 armour come into play over the course of a few shooting phases. 3 shots per model at BS4 really does hit home, at S4 armour piercing they may be one of the best fast cav glass cannons per point for firepower, only beaten in maneuverability by their elf counterparts.
My most often scenario is in a combo with Crossbowmen and Helblasters, especially if somebody can get in a tower. Pick an area to maximise your coverage with each unit and focus down individual enemy units, often finishing something off for good can be more effective than spreading out 3 different sets of scratch damage.
As a final note if you are feeling the death or glory they have a good chance of winning a game of chicken with most fast cav if they can get a stand and shoot off, Wild Riders suffer if you get the first turn, cover or not.
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Post by jamesacon on Oct 12, 2022 20:05:43 GMT
As a final note if you are feeling the death or glory they have a good chance of winning a game of chicken with most fast cav if they can get a stand and shoot off, Wild Riders suffer if you get the first turn, cover or not. Repeater hand guns can't stand and shoot. Wish they could! Edit: please ignore this message, I should not of trusted my battlescribe! That does indeed make these guys quite good! I was using them as they couldn't, will be using them correctly from now on  |
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