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Post by Luigino on Sept 30, 2023 16:51:27 GMT
As per title.
I don't want it to be able to, but the rules don't make it too clear.
To add: a runelord becomes a character with the troop type "warmachine". And while characters are expressly forbidden to join warmachine units, warmachine that are themselves characters are not mentioned at all.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 30, 2023 20:42:51 GMT
Character is not a troop type, but a category sui generis. A character with an Anvil of Doom will change his troop type to war machine, but he still remains a character. Hence, he still cannot join units with the troop type war machine.
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Post by Luigino on Sept 30, 2023 23:07:40 GMT
Character is not a troop type, but a category sui generis. A character with an Anvil of Doom will change his troop type to war machine, but he still remains a character. Hence, he still cannot join units with the troop type war machine. That's clear, but my doubt is then can a Warmachine character join an infantry unit? Or do you mean "he still cannot join units (as long as he's defined) with the troop type war machine"
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 1, 2023 11:46:17 GMT
Crossing them off as we go down the list of reasons I can see he'd be disallowed:
He is specifically counted as a Single Model, hes not a Character joined to a Unit, so that doesn't stop him. Hes still an Independent Character, so he can join Units, he just has the War Machine Troop Type. Monsters, Ridden Monsters and Chariots are specifically called out as being disallowed to join Units, War Machines are only listed for a Character not being allowed to join them. Characters cannot join Unbreakable Units, but the reverse is not true.
CAN they join a unit? Am I missing one? Hes not a disallowed Unit Type, hes still a single model Independent Character (that may be the sticking point, would have to check examples), the Unit he joins obviously couldn't charge, march or flee, but meh? Can you stick 5 Slayers to him so he has a shield against shooting attacks? Also they are now Armour Piercing, but can't charge.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 1, 2023 12:47:04 GMT
As 1plussave indicates, there are a number of rules in 8th that are not reciprocal - for instance the Fly special rule. A character with or without the Fly special rule cannot join a unit with the Fly special rule, but there is no such restriction for a character with the Fly special rule joining a unit without. Likewise, a character with or without the troop type war machine cannot join a unit of that troop type, but there is no restriction for characters with that troop type to join a unit without. I am not sure the drawbacks would outweigh any benefit: - Different footprint: the AoD would have top be placed to the side of the unit and does not add to rank bonus. - Different troop type: the AoD does not benefit from the Look Out Sir! rule. [ v.infra] - The AoD loses the benefits from Unbreakable - The combined unit cannot march, charge or pursue. - The combined unit cannot flee as a charge reaction, but I should think, it could flee after a failed Break test, in which case the AOD is destroyed. I am not quite, though, sure what happens after a failed Panic test.
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 1, 2023 14:33:22 GMT
I am not sure the drawbacks would outweigh any benefit: - Different footprint: the AoD would have top be placed to the side of the unit and does not add to rank bonus. - Different troop type: the AoD does not benefit from the Look Out Sir! rule. - The AoD loses the benefits from Unbreakable - The combined unit cannot march, charge or pursue. - The combined unit cannot flee as a charge reaction, but I should think, it could flee after a failed Break test, in which case the AOD is destroyed. I am not quite, though, sure what happens after a failed Panic test. Its not a tactic you'd base your army around, but an Anvil can, Rules as Written, join a unit of Dwarves should they come up against an army with a pile of Poison shooting or magic missiles. Until you have as many hits against the unit as there are models in the unit he can choose whether or not he wants to take a hit every time the unit gets shot. Does "Slayer Cult" have a rule against Characters joining, Unbreakable or not? I don't have the Dwarf book, just the Anvil rules. The question; "What happens when the unit gets flanked on his side?" comes up, hes on a round base and only 6 models can attack a war machine, does he block the unit from being attacked on that side? Can 2 Anvils join an Unbreakable DaemonSlayer for reasons unknown? Is there a rune that makes a single Dwarf fly? Can the Anvil Vanguard with Strollaz? All these stupid questions and more, brought to you by Games Workshop Rules Writers TM. Our motto: What is Clarity?
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Post by vulcan on Oct 1, 2023 15:12:01 GMT
Let's ask another question that should clear things up.
Can any OTHER unit, type War Machine, join a unit?
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Post by Luigino on Oct 1, 2023 16:36:22 GMT
Guys I really appreciate the answers. To make things clear, I really thinks it's rather obvious the AoD was never meant to be joining a unit. A person asked about it in a FB about an incoming tournament and I wanted to be as precise as possible. I am not sure the drawbacks would outweigh any benefit: I'm sure of the contrary, any benefit is tenuous at best. I understand that in theory Lex imperat non docet, but i am absolutely convinced that it also teaches sometimes. As in, if they really wanted it to join units they would have written rules specifically for what would have happened if it joined units. I'm certain has they come up with a dwarf FAQ before the discontinuation of the game, this very question would have been addressed.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 1, 2023 17:01:00 GMT
@luigino: To clarify: I just forgot another "not". It should have read "I am not sure the drawbacks would not outweigh any benefit." That is why I gave a list of all the drawbacks. 1plussave: - No LoS against templates. - Only models with the Slayer special rule are allowed to join units of Slayers.
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 1, 2023 17:43:26 GMT
@luigino: To clarify: I just forgot another "not". It should have read "I am not sure the drawbacks would not outweigh any benefit." That is why I gave a list of all the drawbacks. 1plussave : - No LoS against templates. - Only models with the Slayer special rule are allowed to join units of Slayers. I don't think any poison attacks or magic missiles have templates, its not the Look Out Sir! he'd be after. And I thought I remembered something like that. vulcan; there is no other War Machine Independent Character in the game, so no, the question does not help.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 1, 2023 19:11:27 GMT
1plussave : As an Empire player, I was mainly dreaming thinking about cannon. Your remark did make me think again, however. The lack of LoS is not a disadvantage in any case, since on his own, he would not get one either. Indeed, in your scenario, he still may have some benefit. And there are situations as well were it may be advantageous to distribute attacks on the Runelord rather than the unit he has joined.
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Post by 1plussave on Oct 1, 2023 19:18:39 GMT
1plussave : As an Empire player, I was mainly dreaming thinking about cannon. Your remark did make me think again, however. The lack of LoS is not a disadvantage in any case, since on his own, he would not get one either. Indeed, in your scenario, he still may have some benefit. And there are situations as well were it may be advantageous to distribute attacks on the Runelord rather than the unit he has joined. Indeed, now the only question remains; if you charge him, can only 6 people attack the unit =P
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 1, 2023 19:30:12 GMT
Hmm, I think I just found the rule that forbids this combination: "If a character cannot be placed within the unit, or beside the front rank, then he cannot attempt to join that unit. This is obvious, perhaps, but worth saying nonetheless" (BRB p. 98; Italics mine). [So obvious, that we all missed it.] Hence, the whole idea can be put ad acta.
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Post by Luigino on Oct 2, 2023 2:04:39 GMT
Hmm, I think I just found the rule that forbids this combination: "If a character cannot be placed within the unit, or beside the front rank, then he cannot attempt to join that unit. This is obvious, perhaps, but worth saying nonetheless" (BRB p. 98; Italics mine). [So obvious, that we all missed it.] Hence, the whole idea can be put ad acta. Thank you, yet another case of a problem solvitur ambulando legendo
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Post by DiscoQing on Oct 2, 2023 12:25:51 GMT
What if you put it on a square base?
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