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Post by colonelburton on Dec 17, 2023 20:17:21 GMT
I'm a little confused. I played a little tournament yesterday, and our Wood Elf player claimed that his Waywatchers can fire arrows that "ignore armor".
Ignore as in, even the Empire's 1+ Armor Save is void.
I couldn't find anything in the codex. Where is this rule?
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Post by saniles on Dec 17, 2023 23:08:11 GMT
Check out their AB. Page 48, top right of the page. The special rule is Hawk-Eyed Archer.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 17, 2023 23:17:48 GMT
What saniles says. It is a S3 attack, but it can ignore AS. Wood Elves AB p. 48 (Hawk-eyed Archer): "Before a model with this special rule makes a shooting attack, decide whether it will make a fast shot or an aimed shot. If the former is chosen, the model’s missile weapon has the Multiple Shots (2) special rule for the duration of that attack. If the latter is chosen, then armour saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the attack. Models in the same unit must choose the same type of shot."
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 18, 2023 6:30:24 GMT
Okay so it's either multiple shot or armor ignoring? Pretty OP against Empire, completely renders one of my greatest strengths null and void. How to counteract this? Combined with the Wild Riders with their Frenzy, Always Strikes First, Devastating Charge and Fear, this army is all but impossible for me to defeat.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2023 10:04:39 GMT
Waywatchers are a Rare choice and rather expensive. With T3 and no AS whatsoever, they are vulnerable to Shooting and (preferably) magic. You could also try to rush them with Pistoliers or a Captasus.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 18, 2023 10:41:57 GMT
Just run at them. Or shoot them. Or fireball them.
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 18, 2023 21:50:47 GMT
Yes, I'm thinking rush with a combo of Pistoliers on the flanks if possible, and steam tank pushing in from the front. The problem is, he combines his Waywatchers pretty well with Wild Riders. They mustn't under any circumstances win the charge against my main army... Devastating charge, attack first.... So I'm thinking, if I have to start, then put as much as I can in half range of the Wild riders first... force them to check LD or charge.. if they do pass, there go my Pistoliers. If not, then my Knightly Order has a chance to advance prior and maybe hit their flank? Anyway, keep them busy with Steam Tank and Pistoliers while Knightly Order block marches in and Crossbowmen pick away at the Wild Riders. Captasus sounds captivating. However, won't he die the moment he starts his move, me having zero defense against archers? There's no decent ward save I can think of against archers. Plus the standard Glade Guard can have poison arrows, which is bad enough. Also, should I take two blocks of Knights (1 IC 1 normal) or just one IC?
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Post by saniles on Dec 18, 2023 22:05:29 GMT
Oh they are very beatable my friend. What Empire stuff do you have access to?
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 18, 2023 23:06:52 GMT
Pretty much everything.
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Post by mcnuggs on Dec 20, 2023 15:38:39 GMT
Not an Empire player, but I play as/against the Woodies with these very units fairly often - Wood Elves struggle against the very tactics they employ, which is shooting, magic, and movement shenanigans. Waywatchers are T3 with no save… hit them with fireball, or a war machine, or pistoliers, or really anything. If you don’t want them hitting your knights, put some stuff in between to give cover - they still need to hit and are only throwing 5 shots per squad. Wild Riders are AWESOME, and one of my favorite units in the game. However, T3 with a 4+/6++ (if you buy the shields) isn’t exactly great. Once again, SHOOT THEM (hellblaster) or hit them with a spell and even one or two killed from the squad severely lowers their damage output (3 rider attacks and 2 mount attacks.) Barring this, you can easily remove Wild Riders by taking advantage of their frenzy - chaff them up with something like fast cav and set up a counter charge after the WR wipe them and must overrun. This somewhat guarantees you the charge… now, a canny general wouldn’t take the bait and reposition somewhere heinous (killy fast cav! Woohoo!) but that’s when you hit them with the faith and gunpowder. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 20, 2023 15:54:37 GMT
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 20, 2023 16:01:07 GMT
Once again, SHOOT THEM (hellblaster) Waywatchers have a 30" range, and fire 10 shots. Helblaster has 24" range. Whether or not I start, I will not be firing at Waywatchers in the first round. So they have one or two rounds to pick away at my Helblaster. 10 shots => 20 shots (multi-shot), long range at a BS of 5 means they hit with a 6. Statiscially on average, that's three and a half wound rolls. Do those go against my crew? (T3) or the Machine? (T7)
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Post by vulcan on Dec 20, 2023 17:19:40 GMT
Shooting at warmachines is resolved against the toughness of the warmachine, not the crew. The crew's toughness is only used in close combat.
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Post by Luigino on Dec 21, 2023 5:01:29 GMT
Once again, SHOOT THEM (hellblaster) Waywatchers have a 30" range, and fire 10 shots. Helblaster has 24" range. Whether or not I start, I will not be firing at Waywatchers in the first round. So they have one or two rounds to pick away at my Helblaster. 10 shots => 20 shots (multi-shot), long range at a BS of 5 means they hit with a 6. Statiscially on average, that's three and a half wound rolls. Do those go against my crew? (T3) or the Machine? (T7) So they wound against the T7 which is great news for you. But if they're BS5 they would be hitting you with 4+ (2+ base; -1 for multiple shots -1 for long range), which is bad news for you.
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 21, 2023 9:01:17 GMT
Don't know how I ended up with a 6. But yeah, 4+ and I should have known that. So 4+ first and then 6+ Which is actually really bad, because both Waywatchers and Glade Guard (5+ / 6+) are a severe threat. 8.3% or 5.5% chance each at wounding with no armor save allowed.... That simply stacks with 50-70 archers.
And then there's the fact that these guys have "Scout", too, meaning if I start, I have to be super careful where I leave room when I advance.
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