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Post by KevinC on Feb 11, 2018 15:13:44 GMT
Ok, what do you guys think of this:
THE LANCE When the armies of Grand Bretonnia marshal for war, they organize into huge, armour-glittering battalions known as the Lance – the favored battle formation of the Knights of Bretonnia. When the Lance charges into the enemy, the Knights of Bretonnia strike true, impaling their foes with the lance while immediately pressing their attack with sword or axe.
A cavalry unit with the Lance Formation special rule is considered to be in Lance Formation when the unit is composed of 10 or more cavalry models. If such a unit falls below 10 cavalry models, they immediately lose all bonuses granted by Lance Formation.
While in Lance formation the unit has the Devastating Charge special rule. Additionally, enemy units of infantry, monstrous Infantry, war beasts, and swarms in base contact with a cavalry unit in Lance Formation may not be steadfast (unless the unit is Stubborn).
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So, this rule, while pretty potent, would encourage players to field large units of Knights. In fact, to ensure units keep the lance formation bonus, players would probably want to field units of 15+. This would make large units of Knights extremely useful and deadly. The Devastating Charge also encourages a wider formations (i.e. you'll get more attacks; only the front rank benefits from the rule).
On top of this, I am considering lowering the Knights of the Realm points cost to 25 points per model, with the option of replacing their lances with great weapons for +4 pts/model.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convincing myself this is the way to do it. It's powerful, but you need large units of Knight, that's a balancing factor in itself. Enemy armies will want to kill as many Knights as possible before combat to negate the Lance. At the same time, the Brets are supported by the Lady's Blessing. The high model count (for cav) would balance out the power of the rule.
What do you guys think??
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 11, 2018 15:26:32 GMT
Kevin,
I believe that early on Danny and I suggested a negation of steadfast in the charge. It really would allow the hits the Brettonians deal out count, as it makes it more likely that an enemy unit will break. I'm play with the formation itself
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Post by KevinC on Feb 11, 2018 15:31:03 GMT
Kevin, I believe that early on Danny and I suggested a negation of steadfast in the charge. It really would allow the hits the Brettonians deal out count, as it makes it more likely that an enemy unit will break. I'm play with the formation itself ------I remember, and I've come around. What do you think of the above rule?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 11, 2018 16:48:44 GMT
Kevin, I believe that early on Danny and I suggested a negation of steadfast in the charge. It really would allow the hits the Brettonians deal out count, as it makes it more likely that an enemy unit will break. I'm play with the formation itself ------I remember, and I've come around. What do you think of the above rule? I like it. I'll run through it this week and report back.
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bigal
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bigal on Feb 11, 2018 23:22:07 GMT
There was no steadfast rule in 6th and 7th Edition, and brets weren't the top army then either. I like the rule, it may be too powerful. An alternative could be double rank bonus for steadfast purposes. At 25pts per core knight a unit of 15 is 375 before command, that is quite expensive, how about lowering the cost of realm knights to 23 with lance, and champs can take GWs for +2pts. Another cool option could be hero virtues that confer bonuses to the unit they are with (like the demon's locus). I would like to be able to field a a str 6 errantry unit again, maybe making a virtue that is 20 points for a hero or champ could add +1 str in the first round of all combats.
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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 12, 2018 0:17:02 GMT
How about allow the lance rules with different widths up to X? Let’s you go 4 or five wide and get the supporting attacks. Blanket ignore steadfast seems too much. We get back to the issue of say 10 knight errant busting a 500 point unit.
Remember knights already get an advantage in the deployment phase (misdeployed cavalry aren’t in as bad shape as infantry), threat range (knights can sit outside likely charge range for infantry and picks when to charge or bypass a roadblock in many cases to get at a softer unit nearby, armor and causing casualties in the first round of ccmbat. Part of the problem with 8th IMO was elves swinging great weapons with the combination of ASF init 5, extra ranks fighting and also in some cases stubborn (and potential immunity to magic attacks.) it pushed the value of cavalry down. But against other infantry cav remain potent.
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Post by KevinC on Feb 12, 2018 1:49:25 GMT
bigal & gjnoronh, You both have some interesting points and ideas. But I do want to play test the Lance as written above for a bit. Although it seems powerful, I do think the model counts (10+) will balance it out. To make use of the rule, players will want a minimum of 12 Knights, that's 300 points or 325 with full command. More conservative players will want a minimum of 15 Knights - that's 400 points with full command. Even then, the enemy needs to kill 6 knights to stop the bonuses. As a result, I think it will really prove to balance out. Not to mention, there are many scenarios where negating steadfast does not matter. Though in these situations they still have the +1 Attack. I do like the idea of the model count stacking bonuses and/or rank width: 5+ models, the unit has Devastating Charge 10+ models, the unit adds +1 to its ward save from the Lady's Boon (if it starts a 6+) 15+ models, the unit negates steadfast
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Post by Naitsabes on Feb 12, 2018 4:29:25 GMT
I think you may want to revise the steadfast negating to only work to their front, why should I lose steadfast if I manage to get into the knights' flank or rear. The other consideration is to allow it only on the turn the knights charge, on the fence about that one.
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Post by magicjuggler on Feb 13, 2018 20:37:27 GMT
I had a quick look over the armybook and I can think of a few notes here and there. -It would be easier to make the Bretonnian Purebred a separate mount rather than make it a special rule for riders in question. Ymmv. You could even give the Warhorses WS 4 if you're feeling fluffy. Incidentally, Grail Knights are currently riding regular Warhorses instead of Bretonnian Warhorses. -For RAW, you could say that "A Knight of the Grail counts as having Knightly Virtue, with the following modifications..." so you can avoid needing to repeat "Knightly Chivalry & Knight of the Grail" across other rules. -Regarding the rules for losing the Blessing, it looks like the RAW allows a Peasant to accept or issue a challenge where a Knight could do so. That seems a little unchivalric if you ask me. -The rules for the Damsels/Matrons should just be "may always use Look Out Sir if in a unit with Knightly Chivalry." KISS. -IMO the Chalice of Potions should allow the Fay Enchantress to bestow the effects of one Potion from the BRB on a nearby Character (or Champion) within 6" -The Field Warden looks like he could be expanded on. Minimal magic item points makes sense, but perhaps allowing him to upgrade to a Craftsman (for better siegecraft) or Bandit Chief has its appeal. -Is there a particular reason that Questing Knights were folded into Knights of the Realm? From a fluff vs crunch perspective it would make more sense. -I always found the Empire dynamic of "heavy cavalry core, light cavalry special" weird and always imagined that Mounted Yeomanry should be core. -Pauper Knights look amusing. IMO the Master of Arms should be a separate hero-grade choice, or maybe an upgrade to the Field Warden. -Personally I would make it so that the Reliquae lets the Battle Pilgrims benefit from the Lady's Boon rather than granting the Peasants actual Knightly Chivalry proper. There's something a little off about an army losing Lady's Boon just because some Peasants wanted to keep their dead totempole safe. -The Mercenaries seem tacked on, and the sort of thing which should be in a companion army. The Captain being in the same slot is also problematic since taking a captain...means less mercenaries, capiche? Perhaps making Foot Knights core and mercenaries special by default would allow for more variance? -The Bretonnian Altar seems pointless. "Restore the Lady's Boon on a 6" and all. Perhaps allow it to suffer D3 automatic unsavable wounds to negate losing the Lady's Boon? (Tears of blood and all). You could even let it heal as certain chivalric deeds were pulled off, or burn wounds for related feats (prohibiting flee charge reactions, challenge refusal, etc). -Is there a niche for Mousillion Knights? They get Impact Hits and some Poison attacks, but Poison itself is more for weight of attacks rather than a small number of them. They lack a Ward, and overall just seem...redundant, especially if in the same slot as Grail Knights. Ironically, they can also suffer panic tests if a unit flees across them...bloody peasants! Perhaps grant them Killing Blow, and maybe some sort of "backstab" ability (reroll hits/wounds if they engage a flank/rear) and they suddenly become more devious overall. -Egads that Porcupine is powerful! Forget Repeater Bolt Throwers, Leadbelchers or Razordons, a guaranteed ten S5 shots without misfire chance is all sorts of good! I could imagine a peasant uprising turning Bretonnia into the trenches of Verdun with them, if they weren't rare. Perhaps make it a S3 Fire Thrower minus the Flaming attacks ("shotgun" effect)? -For armies willing to sacrifice the Lady's Boon, the Trebuchet should have the option for diseased ammuniton. Feche la Vache.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Feb 14, 2018 16:47:17 GMT
Perhaps a points tweak is in order for the realm knights but I really liked them with just impact hits. I feel that negating steadfast could be too powerful. The suggestion to make the foot (pauper) knights core is great. It would allow for some cool builds as well as help in a siege force.
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Post by mottdon on Feb 14, 2018 19:51:21 GMT
I agree. Whenever I play a Bretonnian player, so much of beating them hinges on stopping them in the first round of combat. After that, it becomes a war of attrition. I always had a terrible time stopping my regular Bret opponent from blowing through my units. He would always force my hand by charging my weakest units first and getting one or two of his lances in my backfield, while keeping a few up front and in tight formation so that they couldn't be redirected easily. Trebs keep the pressure on while Peg Knights clean up war machines. That's not bad already, but if they were to disrupt Steadfast, I don't see anyone being able to stop them.
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bigal
New Member
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Post by bigal on Feb 18, 2018 7:01:29 GMT
How about giving the lance formation to special and rare units? Do the 3 wide for units of questing and grail knights. You could even move knights of the realm to special and make errantry knights the staple of the army. You could do a core "light knights" unit like a unit with ws3 str3 3+ armor for like 18pts a model, they wouldn't get lance formation or any other special rules, but you could drop a big 15 man unit down and it would be around 270pts, it's not too powerful, and it's not too expensive. They can come with lances or can get great weapons for +1pts but lose shields. I like the added chariots, maybe add a weaker special option too, or a peg chariot. You could move the skyknight duke to rare and make it just a unit and cut the rider's stats down. It could be a unit size of like 1-4 at 225pts or so each.
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Post by KevinC on Feb 18, 2018 14:46:34 GMT
When it could to the Lance rule with dev charge and cancelling steadfast, I believe the key to balancing it out is the model count (i.e. you need to have 10 whole knights to get the bonus, or 5 for Grail Knights). But I like gjnoronh suggestion of stacking. I really tempted to make the Lady's Boon a 6+ ward save, then have a stacking bonus (that are cumulative) for the knight units, based on the units model size. 5+ Knight models = unit gains devastating charge. 10+ Knight models = the Lady's Boon ward save is increased to 5+. 15+ Knights models = enemy units fighting in the Knight unit's front lose steadfast (unless they are stubborn). Any thoughts on this? avatarofbugman have you played any games with the Lance?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Feb 18, 2018 16:07:41 GMT
Playing one tomorrow. I will just wash warn against making it to complicated. I'll let you know.
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Post by KevinC on Feb 18, 2018 16:17:48 GMT
Playing one tomorrow. I will just wash warn against making it to complicated. I'll let you know. -------The 3 stages above are not complicated and encourage large units (a backbone element of WFB 8th edition). The model count of the unit also become a balancing factor. To negate steadfast you need large units (and must keep them big), it further balances the Lady's Boon, and at the very least, units of Knights will at least have devastating charge (which is really good). Grail Knights could have a special rule where the number of required models is cut in half.
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