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Post by knoffles on Jun 26, 2017 7:33:40 GMT
To follow the trend, my next game (after the Dwarf game on Friday) will likely also be with wood elves. This is my initial take on a list. I've put the characters above the units they will be placed in (with the exception of the waystalker who might go solo). This is also likely the army i'll take for our club competition (as why take an army i'm familiar with ;p)
Fast Attack Wing
Glade Lord (General) - 292pts - Shield, Starfire Shafts, Ogre Blade, Glittering scales, Dragonbane gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Stag
Wild Riders (8) - 269pts - FC, Shields, Banner of Swiftness
Spellweaver - 315pts - Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation, Steed, Lore of Shadow
Sisters of the Thorn (5) - 165pts - Licheborne Pennant
Warhawk Riders (3) - 135pts
Glade Captain (BSB) - 208pts - Great Eagle, HODA, Helm of the Hunt, Shield, Asrai Spear, Starfire Shafts
Reign of Death
Waystalker - 110pts - Bow of Loren
Glade Guard (16) - 270pts - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Trueflight arrows
Glade Guard (15) - 245pts - Musician, Standard, Trueflight arrows
Deepwood Scouts (10) - 180pts - Musician, Standard, Hagbane arrows
Waywatchers (10) - 200pts
Dryads (10) - 110pts
Total - 2499pts
So my thoughts were having an all archer army core, giving 53 potential shots from the foot element (+ another 11 ranged attacks from the mounted element). The mounted element are in the main movement 10 (so 20 inch march) which allows them to scoot around the battlefield at speed, choosing their targets. At first instance, Scouts to target warmachines, Waywatchers to target low toughness, high armour foes. Waystalker to target the enemy BSB or wizards. Glade Guard to target skirmishers and everyone else... The Dryads are to act as chaff for the foot, shielding the archers and redirecting potential attacks. I did wonder if I should swop one of the trueflight arrows for another load of hagbane but I went trueflight so they could move without penalty, get rid of annoying skinks, clear out buildings (especially with the flaming banner) etc. I did also consider swopping one unit of Glade guard for eternal guard, so I had a stubborn combat block. The BSB is a force multiplier. He should be able to easily remove any chaff (with the HODA) that try and block the Wildriders. With 4, WS 7, Str 5 AP attacks on the charge (excluding his mounts attacks) he also has the option to remove them in combat or assist any other combats going on. The mount increases his toughness and allows him to keep up with the Wildriders to help ensure their frenzy is kept under control. (He is prone to be cannon fodder but can hide until they are removed!). The Wildriders are the sledgehammer, I think everyone knows how effective they can be. Adding the movement banner gives them M10, ensuring they keep up with the flyers. The Gladelord ensures they have a maximum leadership to control the frenzy test (backed up by the bsb). I went the great stag as I've never taken it before and think it's only correct that a greater stag joins the lesser stags in the unit (i'm ignoring the obvious drawbacks of the monstrous mount). In terms of gear, he should hit fast and hard and although he lacks armour, most foes will only hit him on a 5+ (I'm open to suggestions on his gear. I did consider dropping him but like the idea of a combat lord as so often the general is a level 4). Again the warhawks are included as I love the models. They can shield the wild riders from shooting, help with warmachine hunting or just generally be a pain! The Level 4 goes in the Sisters. I've chosen shadow as i'm familiar with the lore and think it complements the wood elves weaknesses. Again i'm open to suggestions in what lore to take (I did consider High) if you think another lore would work better. The sisters build is in no way original but gives a 3+ save for them and the L4 vs miscasts. I've also not used them before so wanted to try them out.
I think I've covered most eventualities that they might face but probably not thought of a number
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Post by mottdon on Jun 26, 2017 15:08:23 GMT
I'm liking it. I've run a similar list before to great effect.
Something I might do is to break up the Glade Guard into three separate blocks of 10, 10 and 11, though you'd need to free up 20 points somewhere for another SB and Musician. Maybe drop the Lichebone Pennant on the Sisters? They already have a 4++. Are you that afraid of them getting magic missiled? Or drop a Glade Guard as well? I think having three separate units will give you much versatility in your shooting phase and it won't really hurt if you lose one of those units. It'll also make it much harder for your opponent to chose a target.
FYI, if your Spellweaver joins your unit of Sisters, they'll lose their fast cav. ability. Still, it's a great bunker for her. I'd put her on a Unicorn. That'll give her a lot more options should she get in trouble.
As far as Lore goes, I really like High. It has great versatility among it's spells (and a great boosted magic missile!) but what really shines with High magic on Wood Elves is the Lore attribute! Basically, your caster gains a protection token (used as wounds) for every spell she gets off. It can be worth just taking a lot of the lowest casting value spells JUST to gain those tokens! Even if you don't need a spell, if your opponent will let it go through, then you gained a token! Your placement will be critical with this army. You could easily have your general and BSB far out of position to be effective in their roles. GG and Dryads won't really need them unless they get in trouble though.
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Post by knoffles on Jun 27, 2017 6:28:30 GMT
Edit: managed to copy over the writing...start again. Cheers for the comments mottdon. I could fit 3 units of 10 Glade guard by dropping the star fire shafts from the general. I could fit a unicorn by changing to the 5++ talisman and dropping the standard and magic upgrade from the sisters. The MR (2) with the talisman should give her a 3++ save vs miscast explosions (which was the point of the lichborne standard on the sisters, rather than as a save vs missiles). With the spellweaver as high magic, I now envision her possibly running solo rather than in a unit. Taking shadow was a safety net as I've used it quite a bit. I've often struggled with high and your comments have pushed me to give it a go again. So thanks for that (I think 😀). I'm still not sure about the sisters and am contemplating swopping them for a lvl 2 shadow-weaver, if only for miasma... still will give them a game or two. Fast Attack WingGlade Lord (General) - 288pts - Shield, Ogre Blade, Glittering scales, Dragonbane gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Stag Wild Riders (8) - 269pts - FC, Shields, Banner of Swiftness Spellweaver - 340pts - Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance, Steed, High Magic, Asrai bow Sisters of the Thorn (5) - 140pts - Musician Warhawk Riders (3) - 135pts Glade Captain (BSB) - 208pts - Great Eagle, HODA, Helm of the Hunt, Shield, Asrai Spear, Starfire Shafts Reign of DeathWaystalker - 110pts - Bow of Loren Glade Guard (10) - 170pts - Musician, Standard, Trueflight arrows Glade Guard (10) - 180pts - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Trueflight arrows Glade Guard (10) - 170pts - Musician, Standard, Trueflight arrows Deepwood Scouts (10) - 180pts - Musician, Standard, Hagbane arrows Waywatchers (10) - 200pts Dryads (10) - 110pts Total - 2500pts
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Post by knoffles on Jun 27, 2017 9:04:18 GMT
Oh and I'm normally terrible on deployment and placement so I thought this baptism by fire could only help my game ;p
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Post by mottdon on Jun 27, 2017 13:57:35 GMT
Sweet. I think you'll like having your Spellweaver on a Unicorn much more. The MR is built in and it's got some punch on a charge, so chaff might think twice before taking her on. Still, I'd keep the BSB within rescue range of her.
As far as High Magic goes, I typically stay away from Tempest. I don't think that's the best spell. I'll always swap that out for Soul Quench. And, if possible, always try to get the boosted version of SQ off. That hits like a ton of bricks! A horde killer. The normal one is okay for taking out chaff and the like. Firey Convocation is the other big spell that you want. Other than that, I'd just go with the lowest casting value spells that you can get and stack up those tokens!
If you REALLY want Miasma from Shadow, you can drop the Dryads and try to fit in a Shadowdancer. She can be upgraded to a lv1 Shadow caster. She's also good in a fight! I like giving her Glittering Scales to make her a nightmare in CC! BUT...she really needs an escort of some sort. She's rather vulnerable on her own from shooting.
The other thing I've discovered (the hard way) is not to run the risk of isolating your Waywatchers on their own. It's all too easy to do that due to their scouting ability. You have a ton of movement in your army, so it shouldn't be too difficult, but be warned, they will be a magnet for your opponent. They will know just how lethal they are and will most likely head straight for them. Usually when I take Waywatchers, I take at least 20 and tons of other shooting. If they make it to them, they're gonna be hurtin'!
Lol, good luck!
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Post by knoffles on Jun 27, 2017 17:02:59 GMT
Cheers again mottdon, solid advice and happy it confirms what I suspected. The only issue is my wife keeps trying to paint my unicorn with metallic blue nail varnish, saying "nothing can beat the power of blue sparkles". She seems to think she's funny... I struggle to justify the magic upgrade on the dancer if only due to the 60pt cost. In my theory list building I tend to give her the pot of Str and embed her in the eternal guard as an alpha strike for taking out targets they will struggle against.
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Post by mottdon on Jun 27, 2017 18:18:01 GMT
HA! My wife did the same thing! I bought 3 unicorns ages ago, trying to get her into painting models with me. It didn't take. She painted one Unicorn (really quickly I might add...shame) and put a gold "wash" over it so that it would "sparkle" as well! Lol!
I haven't ever used them in this manner, but I've been tempted to take them as a unit of war beasts. 60 points, same rules, just a rank of 3, no riders. Kinda want to do that just to see what they could do.
Anyway, yeah, 60 points is a rather steep price tag. The do have movement 10 though, as well as MR2 (which would translate to the entire unit, replacing the banner, like you said), +2S on the charge, and I don't have the book in front of me, but I think that they are WS5, A2, T4? Not sure about how many wounds they have, but I'd imagine 2. That's not bad. A flank charge by that would hurt!
The Potion of Strength on her in a unit of Eternal Guard would need to win in one round of combat. After that, they'd be vulnerable. And it's not exactly a unit that you could let sit back and wait. They need to get engaged in order to gain their points back. That MIGHT work with a level 1 caster, but I'd simply rather have a Captain with the Potion of Strength.
I've only played with one Lv1 caster that I've wanted to get into combat though and that's an Empire caster with Van Helsum's Speculum. That's a nasty trick for a Demon Prince!
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Post by knoffles on Jun 30, 2017 10:10:41 GMT
mottdon, one final question, how would you recommend dealing with things like steam tanks (one of my regular opponents always has one). Previously I was thinking at least shadow had pit (and withering for toughness). Any suggestion (or is the answer just avoid it 😀) Cheers.
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Post by mottdon on Jun 30, 2017 14:17:59 GMT
Ooooh. The Stank. Well, you could try to wound it with the Glade Guard armed with Arcane Bodkins, but I think that would be pouring a lot of points into something that might not even kill it. Other than magic, I think that you'd be best served just staying away from it. And that's really not hard to do. In my experience, the Stank does more damage to itself than to an enemy. Sure, IF it gets into CC with a horde of infantry, it can do massive amounts of damage, but with a highly mobile army like wood elves, you shouldn't have much of a problem staying away from it.
The only real thing that you have to fear from the Stank is it's cannon. And that will only really effect big targets. I would protect your characters from it's line of sight though. That's where it'll shoot. But with a little careful placement, that shouldn't be a problem. You can also somewhat control the Stank by railroading it (placing a unit 1" away on either side of it.) This way, it can't pivot to line up a cannon shot and can't get a charge off. The thing you'd have to worry about is the Steam Gun. It can really fry up some elves (also counts as flaming attacks so keep Treemen and Treekin away from it!) so that might not be the best strategy.
Personally, I'd just shoot the occasional magic missile off at it and hope for 2-3 wounds. After that, it starts to become very unreliable. I'd focus on the rest of his army. The one thing you REALLY need to worry about is the Helblaster Volley Gun. That will crush you. Attack that immediately. Hit it hard, fast and get out of there. Blitz it with whatever you can and stay out of it's line of sight. Shoot any chaff that might get in your way of a charge to it and be prepared to lose a charging unit to it. Remember that it only has a 24" range. Something that can really screw opponents up is that they forget that they usually have an Engineer attached and he can pop out and act as last minute chaff, allowing it to get another round of shooting in. For example, if I were the Empire player and I saw you lining up a charge with your BSB on Great Eagle and your Warhawk Riders, then I'd simply pop my Engineer out to chaff up your Riders and shoot your BSB. Next round, shoot your Riders, having been stopped by my Engineer. Something to remember.
And don't forget that Cannons have Grape Shot. Line up long charges against those. Not many people take Mortars anymore, but if your opponent knows you'll be taking WE, then this might make an appearance. It's only S2 now, but fairly accurate due to using the big splash template. That can really hurt a unit of 10 Glade Guard or Waywatchers. Something that you might need to deal with quickly.
Firey Convocation, Soul Quench and magic arrows into Halberdiers. That'll bring them down to a manageable size. Then it won't matter if they get into CC with your Glade Guard or Dryads (remember Dryads have Hatred!).
Demigryphs you'll need to be careful with. They should be the target for you Warwatchers and Waystalker (Unless he's stupid enough to put an Arch Lector on a War Altar. In that case, pick him out, but you'll still have time to do that after dealing with the Demis.) After they've been weakened with the ignore armor shots, hit them hard with your Wild Riders and general to finish them off.
Don't worry about knights. They really aren't that good. 1+ armor is really the only thing that they have going for them. Just don't let them get a charge off and you'll be fine.
Their characters aren't very good, but you might have to look out for a Captain on Pegasus. That's one of their best. Your BSB could easily take him out though.
I hope that helps!
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Post by knoffles on Jun 30, 2017 15:38:04 GMT
More than I asked for! Many thanks!
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Post by knoffles on Aug 3, 2017 6:13:06 GMT
Ok, after my first battle I have slightly tweaked the list. The main changes are to the characters and involve adding better saves to them to protect against cannons and snipes. The trade-off was some of their CC protection and combat was reduced slightly. I've also had to reduce the number of wildriders to fit these in and the great eagle I wanted to assist with redirects to help protect the wildriders when they steam in.
I've highlighted changes in bold and if points don't add up it is purely down to me missing something as it does on Army Builder.
I'm not sure about the reduction in size of the wildriders. On one hand before I felt some of their potential was wasted due to the supporting attacks rule but now i'm not sure if they are understrength, especially considering how fragile they are. What size unit do others use for them?
Fast Attack Wing
Haldrin Stormlight - Glade Lord (General) - Shield, Ogre Blade, Armour of Destiny, Dragonbane gem, Potion of Foolhardiness, Great Stag - 313pts
Wild Riders (8 6) - FC, Shields, Banner of Swiftness - 213pts
Spellweaver - Level 4, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance, Steed, High Magic, Asrai bow - 335pts
Sisters of the Thorn (5) - Musician, Standard - 150pts
Warhawk Riders (3) - 135pts
Glade Captain (BSB) - Great Eagle, HODA, Helm of the Hunt, Charmed Shield, Asrai Spear, Starfire Shafts - 191pts
Reign of Death
Waystalker - Bow of Loren - 110pts
Glade Guard (10) - Musician, Standard, Trueflight arrows - 170pts
Glade Guard (10) - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Trueflight arrows - 180pts
Glade Guard (10) - Musician, Standard, Trueflight arrows - 170pts
Deepwood Scouts (10) - Musician, Standard, Hagbane arrows - 180pts
Waywatchers (10) - 200pts
Dryads (10) - 110pts
Great Eagle - 50pts
Total - 2,497pts
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 3, 2017 7:02:53 GMT
Looks cool. You could free up some points with the sisters banner and the wild rider champ if you want more riders. Will the lord on stag travel with the wildriders?
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Post by knoffles on Aug 3, 2017 7:35:36 GMT
Looks cool. You could free up some points with the sisters banner and the wild rider champ if you want more riders. Will the lord on stag travel with the wildriders? Probably but as with the Spellweaver and sisters, I can be flexible and they can both run solo if I feel the need. How does your unit of 5 wildriders work out for you? Do you normally wish for more of them or does that size seem about right? (I appreciate that you normally play slightly different size games).
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 3, 2017 7:40:43 GMT
Looks cool. You could free up some points with the sisters banner and the wild rider champ if you want more riders. Will the lord on stag travel with the wildriders? Probably but as with the Spellweaver and sisters, I can be flexible and they can both run solo if I feel the need. How does your unit of 5 wildriders work out for you? Do you normally wish for more of them or does that size seem about right? (I appreciate that you normally play slightly different size games). For me 5 without champ at 1500 has been..... totally freaking awesome. If I had the units I would probebly run two units of five at 1500 but made my second box sisters instead.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 3, 2017 15:12:55 GMT
I think strutsagget is correct in that you could free up 10 points by taking out the banner from the Sisters. Also, I'd probably get rid of the Dryads and the standards from the 2 smaller units of Glade Guards and increase their unit sizes to 13 each.
Something like this:
13 Glade Guard - Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Trueflight Arrows - 225 pts 13 Glade Guard - Musician, Trueflight Arrows - 205 pts 13 Glade Guard - Musician, Trueflight Arrows - 205 pts
I'd use the Great Eagle to handle chaff and things like Fanatics.
As far as Wild Riders go, I take two units of 6 and move them in tandem, side by side. That pretty much ensures a flank charge. If nothing else, you can be rather sure of baiting units out of position with another ready to pick up the slack. Also, the Helm of the Hunt works really well on your Lord on Stag, but I wouldn't have him set up to be your general. He'll be out of position to support your forces, and set in a Glass Cannon unit, so IF I take the HotH, I make sure he's a Captain and NOT my general. But with your build, you're good.
Something else to consider, you might want to drop the Warhawk Riders (I HATE saying that because I love those guys so much!), the Great Eagle from your BSB and maybe another Wild Rider and taking another unit of 10 Waywatchers. If you're going to go heavy shooting, go HEAVY!
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