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Post by strutsagget on Jul 24, 2017 17:47:21 GMT
Hi, I move this one here from my battle report. What I wonder is how are we suppose to move the unit in this fight with 5 units when one unit loses rank (eternal guard). This occurs during two turns. What happens to stomp at end of combat, and how am I suppose to move the spider and trolls? Then the turn later this.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 24, 2017 19:06:28 GMT
Okay, so I think ryryak got this right on your other thread, but lets try to go through it again to make sure we're all on the same page.
(It would be good if you could post the Initiatives of each unit so that we could know the order of striking that is going on.)
I know that the Eternal Guard will be going first. At the beginning of CC, they could allocate 1-2 attacks on the Spider, 3-4 on the Trolls, and 6 ahead to the Goblins. I know that the Treekin are Int 3, but not sure about the rest. The Spider and Goblins are all probably 3 as well, and pretty sure that the Trolls would be going last.
So anyway, the 2 Treekin in base contact would go against the Goblins. If I were the O&G player, I'd allocate the Spider and Goblins on it's back into the Eternal Guard next (assuming all Int 3.) Once those two rows on the back of the EG unit are killed, the Spider is now out of CC and therefore cannot allocate anymore attacks toward the unit (this mostly concerns it's Thunderstomps, as that goes at the very end and by this point it is no longer in base contact.)
Now after the Trolls and Goblins (to the front) go, and what you're left with is 2 EG and the Trolls and Spider are no longer in base contact, you're free to charge back in on your next turn or go elsewhere because they are no longer considered to be engaged.
AT NO POINT can you reform to take models OUT of a combat. What I mean by this is, say you've gone through your first round of combat and left with what's shown in your first image. But without the Treekin there. You could not reform the EG so that they engage more models in base contact with the Goblins, leaving the Spider suddenly out of combat. It must stay engaged by two models.
Now say, the Spider and Treekin aren't there. You COULD reform so that the last row (who don't touch the Trolls) move up to come to form another column and bring another two attacks against the Goblins. BUT in order to do this, you must have won the previous round of combat. That's the only way you can reform.
Typically, if you are facing a combat with multiple units that all have the same initiative, you want your units that have the greatest potential to be taken out of combat first to use their attacks first. That's maximizing your available attacks.
I hope that made sense.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 24, 2017 19:19:06 GMT
Okay, so I think ryryak got this right on your other thread, but lets try to go through it again to make sure we're all on the same page. (It would be good if you could post the Initiatives of each unit so that we could know the order of striking that is going on.) I know that the Eternal Guard will be going first. At the beginning of CC, they could allocate 1-2 attacks on the Spider, 3-4 on the Trolls, and 6 ahead to the Goblins. I know that the Treekin are Int 3, but not sure about the rest. The Spider and Goblins are all probably 3 as well, and pretty sure that the Trolls would be going last. So anyway, the 2 Treekin in base contact would go against the Goblins. If I were the O&G player, I'd allocate the Spider and Goblins on it's back into the Eternal Guard next (assuming all Int 3.) Once those two rows on the back of the EG unit are killed, the Spider is now out of CC and therefore cannot allocate anymore attacks toward the unit (this mostly concerns it's Thunderstomps, as that goes at the very end and by this point it is no longer in base contact.) Now after the Trolls and Goblins (to the front) go, and what you're left with is 2 EG and the Trolls and Spider are no longer in base contact, you're free to charge back in on your next turn or go elsewhere because they are no longer considered to be engaged. AT NO POINT can you reform to take models OUT of a combat. What I mean by this is, say you've gone through your first round of combat and left with what's shown in your first image. But without the Treekin there. You could not reform the EG so that they engage more models in base contact with the Goblins, leaving the Spider suddenly out of combat. It must stay engaged by two models. Now say, the Spider and Treekin aren't there. You COULD reform so that the last row (who don't touch the Trolls) move up to come to form another column and bring another two attacks against the Goblins. BUT in order to do this, you must have won the previous round of combat. That's the only way you can reform. Typically, if you are facing a combat with multiple units that all have the same initiative, you want your units that have the greatest potential to be taken out of combat first to use their attacks first. That's maximizing your available attacks. I hope that made sense. Thank you a lot! Not that easy in the beginning. Yes were suppose to link but he answered before I managed/remembered to link Sorry for spamming but thought it was easier to have a separate post. Here is ryryaks answer for those interested. eefl.freeforums.net/thread/572/ong-1500-rematch-july-13?page=2&scrollTo=11364
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 26, 2017 6:57:37 GMT
So the second part. What happens when the eternal guard have two units left (inside of the goblins flank)?
If I get it right the trolls then are out of combat and can not stomp.
Is it then possible to reform treekins to move one unit outside combat to the right into combat ( guess it would take a double 1 LD test)?
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Post by mottdon on Jul 26, 2017 13:17:31 GMT
Hmmm. This is a good question. I THINK you'd maximize the combat, but so long as none of your units are taken out of combat. That's crucial. From your diagram, it looks like you could simply shift everything over so that the last Treekin is in corner-to-corner contact. This should be possible since the Trolls and Spider are no longer in contact.
And, yes, you are correct. The Trolls would not get stomps in the last diagram you provided.
And remember, EG are Stubborn, so they won't test on double 1's.
If you did want to reform the Treekin however, you could move 1 to right behind the Treekin on the right. He will still get all of his attacks because he is Monstrous Infantry and they get to attack with everything. Not sure about stomps though. I don't think that they get those from the second rank. It's been a long time since I encountered that.
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Post by Horace on Jul 26, 2017 15:01:03 GMT
This sort of thing is specifically covered in the rulebook. I'll have a root through it when I get a sec
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Post by Horace on Jul 27, 2017 8:13:45 GMT
I think this is all covered in this section: Essentially you just have to nudge the units forward by as little as possible to re-engage them (without altering their facing - by this I assume front/flank/rear?). This is possible for the Trolls who you would just nudge forward. Because of the spider I guess it would fall into the move defender situation so perhaps you would actually have to move the Eternal Guard across so their base is flush on the edge, then get both the final Troll and Spider engaged against the single base? It is an odd one for sure. The rules basically just say fudge it.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 27, 2017 10:58:53 GMT
But that would meen to change what Troll is in combat? If i keep nudging trolls and spider up after every rank of eternal is removed it would push the troll on top out of combat.
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Post by Horace on Jul 27, 2017 13:28:11 GMT
I don't see why that would matter?
Obviously as more Eternal Guard die the amount in base contact will reduce. You have to try and maintain the units in combat by either moving the attackers or defenders.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 13:34:18 GMT
I think that's why Horace is saying that you'd move your EG to the right once the Trolls are up against the side of the Goblins. That's maximizing your combat. I don't see anyway that the Spider can still be in combat, so I'd assume that he's free to do whatever.
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Post by Horace on Jul 27, 2017 13:53:03 GMT
You could just put the Spider and end Troll corner to corner against the flank of the single Eternal Guard This would be my understanding of how it should be (may not be correct)
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 14:11:27 GMT
Hmmm. Maybe. That seems to be a LOT of shifting to me, but you might be correct. The guy who mostly taught me to play, always said that if a unit is no longer in contact, it's free from combat, BUT he certainly "tweaked" the rules to his advantage plenty. That's why I eventually stopped playing him after investigating the rules for myself.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 28, 2017 6:27:07 GMT
You could just put the Spider and end Troll corner to corner against the flank of the single Eternal Guard This would be my understanding of how it should be (may not be correct) This is more or less how we did it. Enableing thunderstomps at end of every combat turn and changeing/removing trolls from combat to keep spider in combat.
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Post by dannytee on Jul 29, 2017 16:02:43 GMT
Now say, the Spider and Treekin aren't there. You COULD reform so that the last row (who don't touch the Trolls) move up to come to form another column and bring another two attacks against the Goblins. BUT in order to do this, you must have won the previous round of combat. That's the only way you can reform. Small correction here. If you lose the combat you can still attempt to reform. But in order to do so you need to pass a leadership test which is modified by how much you lost close combat by.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 18:47:09 GMT
You could just put the Spider and end Troll corner to corner against the flank of the single Eternal Guard This would be my understanding of how it should be (may not be correct) I could see this working as it allows for more units to remain in the combat, even if it means moving some models (in this case, the trolls) out of combat. Why I think my way is better (and I don't claim to be right, I think this is an issue you should work out with your opponent so both people know what's going to happen ahead of time if this situation comes up) is because it requires the least amount of nudging. Your method involves nudging both the trolls and the spider in order to remain in combat (And in this example, the treeman eventually engaged with the spider would also move) whereas my method involves nudging ONLY the spider(/treeman) until the spider can't be nudged anymore. Just work this out ahead of time with your opponent. I think both methods are viable.
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