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Post by frozenfood on Jul 27, 2017 14:26:53 GMT
Hey,
I'm facing lots of cannons and plenty of halberdiers methinks.
What would be the best way of dealing with them?
Ghorgons are great against infantry but are cannon magnets.
Harpies can fly over stuff and attack cannons.
Any other ideas?
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 14:38:08 GMT
I'd recommend Chariots against Empire. I know that cannons can take them out, etc, but if you have around 4, then you're bound to get some into combat. Empire infantry is pretty weak too, so they can stand up to them quite well. Pair them on either side of combat units (Gors/Beasigors) and you can have some good combo charges lined up. The Ghorgon can be a good cannon distraction if nothing else.
And what's that bug-eyed Boar thing that Beastmen can take? I've seen those be pretty effective taking out war machines. And,yes, Harpies. Ungors just suck. No point in taking them.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 27, 2017 15:00:27 GMT
As an empire player I'd be afraid of harpies. Also just having your stuff in combat or very close to my troops makes me think twice about firing war machines at you. Halberdiers and other core foot troops are easy to crush if you have guys with additional hand weapons, plus the signature beast spell giving you plus 1 S and T.
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 27, 2017 15:06:48 GMT
Razorgors can be used for warmachine hunting. Not sure about outriders since they get to stand and shoot...
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 15:36:24 GMT
Personally, I think Pisoliers suck. They only get two shots each, and they are the mobile ones. Outriders CAN churn out some shots though! Watch out for them if he has units of 10. They are not quick to fire though, so they can't move and still fire.
A tactic that can be rather effective with them is to take a small unit of Huntsmen that can scout ahead and block any Vanguarding units from the area you want the Outriders to go. Leave enough room for your Outriders to Vanguard far forward and in front of the Huntsmen as possible. If the Empire player gets first turn, then top of round 1, they unload 30 shots into their enemy. When they are inevitably charged the following turn, they flee, leaving the Huntsmen to take the charge, with a Stand and Shoot. In the following turn, rally the Outriders and get them into position to start unloading where they are needed. That will cost the Empire player of shooting with them, but that's 30 shots into an enemy that's almost sure to hurt!
I've seen this done VERY effectively with two units of 10 Outriders. They nearly wiped out the units they were facing and severely depleted his opponents army. They never recovered from that. The Empire player was in control the entire game. He controlled the field placement with his Huntsmen, not allowing his opponent Vanguard moves, and then suddenly had two strong shooting unit in a position to do severe damage before his opponent had any chance to form some sort of defense or counter-strategy.
That's what I'd warn to watch for with Outriders.
The best way to deal with them is to have multiple units that can charge them. Once in CC, they are average humans and aren't that great, so if you can tie them up until help comes, then you can probably win. Harpies can probably do that the best.
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 27, 2017 16:27:40 GMT
Cool tactic, need to remember that for later. So for now multi-charge is the answer.
How do I handle the steamtank though?
Can only think of Death magic. It thrashed my Ghorgon last time.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 16:59:15 GMT
Unfortunately, probably the best thing for Beastmen to do with it is Railroad. That's kind of a frowned upon tactic, because it's utilizing a flaw in the rules, BUT Beastmen don't really have very much that can deal with it. If you find that you have to deal with it, then GW weilding units. I've also seen a Doombull go to town on one though! Doombulls are nasty! Once you've put about 5 wounds on the Stank, just get away from it and let it blow itself up. It becomes highly unreliable the more wounds it has.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 17:08:03 GMT
The chalice of dark rain is a great magic item here. Basically shuts down shooting for a turn. In a take all comers environment and especially against empire and other shooty armies it's always worth at least considering.
Also screen your combat blocks with skirmishing screens of ungor raiders. This will give hard cover against your combat blocks, and the knowledge that he's shooting against a worthless unit (fluff perspective, they're very useful in game, even if they don'l kill/accomplish much) of skirmishers if he decides to shoot the ungors. You'll have to plan your charges carefully, and in advance so you don't end up tripping over them or WORSE blocking your own charges, but it's worth it if it means you make it into combat more or less intact.
As always though, beware your LD! Beastmen for the most part are average-low leadership, this is especially true for their chaff. If the unit is not within the generals range then do your best to make sure they're further than 6" apart from each other. You do NOT want a chain panic crippling your army. I've had this happen to me once and I told myself never again. If your opponent is canny he'll shoot at (and try to wipe out) a smallish unit of chaff in the hopes of panicking everything else near by. You can lose an entire flank this way. MIND YOUR 6" DISTANCES.
For the stank? I'd consider bestigors with the razor standard. -4 to saves and wounding on 4's should put it down quickly, A horde of them should reliably do 3-4 wounds per combat phase. Wildform on them will help speed things along here. Shadow Magic also has an answer in the form of pit of shades and penumbral pendulum. Pretty sure the stank doesn't like I tests.
really bestigors are the beastmens answer for most things. I wish I could play large enough games where I could bring THREE units of 40. For that matter I wish they were core. I'd take one unit with the standard of discipline for my general, one unit with the razor standard for dealing with cavalry/monstrous cavalry/stanks and one unit with the flaming banner for dealing with regenning enemies.
Or just allow a single unit of gors to take a magic standard. Or just allow a SINGLE unit of bestigors to be core. Oh well.
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 27, 2017 17:45:31 GMT
(Passes a Belgian beer to ryrak)
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Post by knoffles on Jul 27, 2017 17:52:41 GMT
Razorgor are amazing redirectors. Park them in front of anything you want to hold up.
If taking harpies, consider using them in a 3 by 2 formation. Sure you lose 2 attacks but it allows more attacks on warmachines or for assassinations.
Ghogons are cannon magnets, just get them into combat as quickly as possible (that goes for most of your army). Remember they are LD 10 stubborn so can operate outside of the generals bubble.
Stanks are a bitch. Magic is your most effective tool. Boosted Amber spear from beasts and pit of shades (maybe with miasma) from Shadow. Avoid penumbral as I think it isn't multi wound/auto kill (you may want to check that). Not sure about Death. Don't let it get into combat with your units without a good number of wounds on it as it will butcher you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 18:26:53 GMT
Razorgor are amazing redirectors. Park them in front of anything you want to hold up. If taking harpies, consider using them in a 3 by 2 formation. Sure you lose 2 attacks but it allows more attacks on warmachines or for assassinations. Ghogons are cannon magnets, just get them into combat as quickly as possible (that goes for most of your army). Remember they are LD 10 stubborn so can operate outside of the generals bubble. Stanks are a bitch. Magic is your most effective tool. Boosted Amber spear from beasts and pit of shades (maybe with miasma) from Shadow. Avoid penumbral as I think it isn't multi wound/auto kill (you may want to check that). Not sure about Death. Don't let it get into combat with your units without a good number of wounds on it as it will butcher you. I forgot that penumbral only does D3. I had it used against me last weekend I should have remembered. S10, doing D3 wounds if you fail an I test. Good in a pinch but there are better spells out there. Thanks for the reminder  Razorgors are indeed amazing, I wouldn't leave home without three of them. They also make great character assassins, especially wizards and magic banner toting bsb's who think they're safe hiding inside a unit. 4 WS3 S6 attacks can put the hurt on those characters, even kill them with a bit of luck; LD 6 though so beware. Also stanks become a LOT less deadly if you can hex their S. Again lore of shadow here ftw. You could throw a large unit of ungors at it and just tie it up all game too, that's a valid tactic. |
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2017 18:38:34 GMT
Personally, I think most people are way more scared of a Stank than they should be. The thing blows up half the time, and doesn't move very far either. Unless he deploys it in the middle, you'll probably have 1-2 turns before it can get into CC. That should give you plenty of time to adjust to where it's going, who it's targeting, and how it's performing. The thing you really want to avoid with it is getting into a CC situation with a Stank and other units. A flank charge while that is in your front is devastating. Avoid it, hit it with magic, and then chaff it up.
Remember too, it's only 250 points, so don't devote more points than that into taking it out.
Far, far more worse than any Stank, is a Helblaster Volley Gun. Or two!  Those will obliterate your infantry blocks! Beware the HBVG.........! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 19:31:58 GMT
I think it's the idea of a T6 W10 1+AS unbreakable model. Even if it doesn't do anything it can essentially tie up a unit for the entire game. Most people don't want that.
I agree there are bigger threats out there, but I also think that the stank cannot be ignored either.
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 27, 2017 19:45:21 GMT
It killed my Ghorgon in one turn
It can kill 12 bestigor in one turn.
It only blows up when I use it :5
Magic seems to be the way. Shadow miasma his strength is also a good one. S6 or S3 is a huge difference.
Totem of rust anyone? I think razor banner would be more interesting
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 19:51:51 GMT
Beast banner is better than totem of rust. The better chances of wounding, and being able to get your own armor save is vastly better than just essentially giving yourself armor piercing
EDIT: It's -2 to b2b enemy saves isn't it?
I think I'd still rather just have +1S.
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Those will obliterate your infantry blocks! Beware the HBVG.........!