Yvain
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Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on May 3, 2018 11:26:15 GMT
Honestly, if it's between those two options, I'd prefer making it harder to dispel, and better spell options, but you can only take three choices. Doesn't really matter if it costs less, if it still is only "okay". It really needs both. At 290 points, he is by far the most expensive wizard in the game and he gets none of the wizard bonuses. I kind of like wangs idea of not having to worry about wizard levels. The runelord still completely sucks by himself though. He should really drop in price or better yet act at least like a standard wizard in the dispel phase hence the +4 suggestion. Lowing the price of the anvil and using wangs idea I could see bringing this out way more often. It would still probably be just an okay choice, but made good mosty because no one would expect a dwarf to have a competent magic phase.
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Post by mottdon on May 3, 2018 13:12:14 GMT
Well, the 7th edition book had both the Anvil and Runelord costing more (175 pts and 140 pts, respectively) and they were almost always an auto-take. The difference was that it was struck in the Shooting Phase and couldn't be dispelled since it "wasn't magic" and classified as a War Machine. Dwarf players loved it, and Dwarf opponents hated it. The best part was the Rune that allowed you an extra movement (included charge), so stranded units that were presumed out of the game, were suddenly back in it, and units that had reformed or were just out of range for a successful charge, were suddenly in their opponent's faces.
The 8th edition book took a HUGE nerf bat to the Anvil, moving it to the Magic Phase (thus, giving the opponent all the advantage due to being able to add +4 from his Wizard level to dispel) and thus, no spells got off. That became a HUGE points sink into something that suddenly had no effect on the game at all. They also replaced the movement Rune to a Rune that increases your armor save by +1. Not that +1 armor is bad, but more movement is HUGE for Dwarfs. That just killed the Anvil for 8th edition.
So based off how the Anvil was used in 7th, I'd tend to think that if it was made worthy of taking, then people would pay whatever the costs in order to gain the game benefit. That's one reason I like 9th's option of choosing which 3 Runes (out of 6) you can take on the Anvil. If you want all 6 options, taking two Anvils suddenly makes sense. As is right now in 8th, the only benefit would be "Locus of Power", which adds +1 DD and PD each magic phase.
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Yvain
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Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on May 3, 2018 19:09:23 GMT
I like the idea of choice, but a little hesitant about changing too much. The fluff says Anvils and Runelords are rare and magic should still be a Dwarf weakness.
How about something this:
Runelord 100 points. Same stats Rune Mastery: A runelord automatically gains one dispel dice and can attempt to channel just as a wizard does.
Anvil of Doom: 150 Points. Same stats as 8th. Locus of Power same as 8th. Strike the Runes: Runes are not effected by wizard power levels when attempting to dispel. When manifesting Ancient power, a failure to strike a rune requires the Anvil to consult the table. For every dice above 2 utilized to strike a rune -1 from your table result. Failed Rune Table D6: 1-2 Rune Destroyed, Runes may not be used the following turn, Anvil takes a wound no saves allowed 3-4 Runes may not be used the following turn and no effect is given, Anvil takes a wound saves allowed 5-6 Rune effect is not produced and that specific rune may not be used the following turn.
Rune of Hearth and Home – Power level 3, Immune to Psychology, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 6, Stubborn and Immune, unlimited range Rune of Oath and Steel – Power level 5, +1 save, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 10, +1 save +1 parry, unlimited no range Rune of Wrath and Ruin – Power level 4, 2D6 Strength 4, 24 inch range Ancient Power – Power level 8, unlimited range Rune of Honor and Fury - Power level 5, single unit makes a move as if marching. Ancient Power - Power level 10, single unit moves as if marching, doesn’t not count has having moved for shooting purposes. If unit ends in base contact with another unit or model, it counts as having charged.
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Post by mottdon on May 4, 2018 13:51:23 GMT
I like the idea of choice, but a little hesitant about changing too much. The fluff says Anvils and Runelords are rare and magic should still be a Dwarf weakness. How about something this: Runelord 100 points. Same stats Rune Mastery: A runelord automatically gains one dispel dice and can attempt to channel just as a wizard does. Anvil of Doom: 150 Points. Same stats as 8th. Locus of Power same as 8th. Strike the Runes: Runes are not effected by wizard power levels when attempting to dispel. When manifesting Ancient power, a failure to strike a rune requires the Anvil to consult the table. For every dice above 2 utilized to strike a rune -1 from your table result. Failed Rune Table D6: 1-2 Rune Destroyed, Runes may not be used the following turn, Anvil takes a wound no saves allowed 3-4 Runes may not be used the following turn and no effect is given, Anvil takes a wound saves allowed 5-6 Rune effect is not produced and that specific rune may not be used the following turn. Rune of Hearth and Home – Power level 3, Immune to Psychology, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 6, Stubborn and Immune, unlimited range Rune of Oath and Steel – Power level 5, +1 save, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 10, +1 save +1 parry, unlimited no range Rune of Wrath and Ruin – Power level 4, 2D6 Strength 4, 24 inch range Ancient Power – Power level 8, unlimited range Rune of Honor and Fury - Power level 5, single unit makes a move as if marching. Ancient Power - Power level 10, single unit moves as if marching, doesn’t not count has having moved for shooting purposes. If unit ends in base contact with another unit or model, it counts as having charged. I like your changes, and the additional DD from the RuneLord. Gives a benefit for taking him. I also like that there's no chance of destroying the Anvil from a Miscast. As for the Runes, I might change a little: Only one Rune per turn may be struck with Ancient Power. Runic Lore Attribute: If any rune is successfully struck, all friendly Dwarven units within 18" of the Anvil will gain rerolls of failed Panic tests until the beginning of the player's next magic phase. Filled with an overwhelming sense of pride and duty, Dwarves take heart at the sight of their Anvil exhibiting the might of their Clan. Rune of Hearth and Home – Power level 3, Immune to Psychology or Stubborn, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 6, Stubborn or Immune to Psychology, effects all friendly units within 18" range.
Rune of Oath and Steel – Power level 4, +1 save, range 24 Ancient Power – Power level 8, +1 save +1 ward (stacks with other ward saves), unlimited no range Rune of Wrath and Ruin – Power level 5, 2D6 Strength 4, 24 inch range Ancient Power – Power level 10, unlimited range . Uses a Small Round Template and inflicts S3(S6 under hole) hits. Does not need Line of Sight when targeting an enemy. Roll a Scatter Dice and D6 to see where the template hits.
Rune of Honor and Fury - Power level 5, single unit makes a move as if marching. Ancient Power - Power level 10, single unit moves as if marching, doesn’t not count has having moved for shooting purposes. If unit ends in base contact with another unit or model, it counts as having charged.
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Post by sedge on May 4, 2018 15:41:59 GMT
I like those changes, but as an alternative, a really simple option could be for the Anvil to give the Runelord's Magic Resistance (1) and Armour Piercing rules an area of effect - either 12" or 18". It doesn't solve the issue of the runes being tricky to cast, but it's a very simple change that salvages those two special rules, and suddenly makes the Anvil very useful for defensive lists (i.e. most of them).
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Yvain
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Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on May 4, 2018 16:38:29 GMT
I like the one Ancient power per turn rule.
I like the idea of a lore attribute especially the fluff, however it kind of becomes redundant with Hearth and Home. Our leadership is so high, having a banner and this power means I have little to worry from Psycho tests.
How about this instead:
Rune Battery: Runelords are masters of controlling the flow of magical power within each rune and can direct the excess energy as he sees fit. After a rune is successfully manifest, that runelord gains +1 to its dice rols until the start of its next magic phase. This ability can be stacked 3 times. In addition, if an ancient power is struck roll a die. On a 2+, a unit within 18 inches gains armor piercing. If the until already has armor piercing it instead gains +1 strength until the Anvil's next magic phase. Attacks with these weapons count as magical. On a 1, the energy is not enough to bind to any weapon and simply dissipates.
If have to consult the rune table you lose any roll bonus gained. (Not weapon bonus as they will already be "attached" to the gear)
The idea here being the you have built up an aura of magic around the anvil. This will make your runes slightly easier to cast, but the real benefit will be in the opponents phase where you could potentially have your Anvil count as a level 4 wizard with 2 extra dice one from the Anvil and Runelord even before attempts to channel then potentially from a channel.
For hearth and home, I feel like Stubborn is too much at the lower level. We have high defense already, so unless we are facing ultra killy units our guys are usually already steadfast. Making them stubborn for so cheap would be over kill. The upgraded bubble stubborn would be scary as well. I could get behind, Immune to Psych low level, ancient power that unit gains Immune and Stubborn or Immune to Psych for 18 inch bubble. Idea being you focus the rune or let the energy go free
For W&R, I like the indirect fire, but but the lower strength means I would likely not cast it. On 2D6 you should get around 7-8 dice and a small template usually fits around 9-10 models tops. So the result is that I would hit a few more bases (possibly because of scatter fewer) and do less over all wounds cuz of toughness. Look out sir negates the S6 hit usefulness. I would say 4(8) or large blast 3(6).
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Yvain
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Posts: 112
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Post by Yvain on May 4, 2018 16:47:58 GMT
I like those changes, but as an alternative, a really simple option could be for the Anvil to give the Runelord's Magic Resistance (1) and Armour Piercing rules an area of effect - either 12" or 18". It doesn't solve the issue of the runes being tricky to cast, but it's a very simple change that salvages those two special rules, and suddenly makes the Anvil very useful for defensive lists (i.e. most of them). I still think it would be a non-take in most cases because I don't think it will be worth it. However, it also would further ruin army balance outside of gunlines. Bubble AP means I will never take Thunderers. Grudge throwers gain a huge buff. So does the flame cannon. Bolt thrower does as well, but it is the one that actually needs it. Bubble Magic Resist is meh. Yes its a nice to have, but with T4 and high armor its barely an upgrade worth caring about. Especially, since all the spells we actually have a problem with do not interact with MR. (stuff like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades) Both of these would further encourage gunline play as well, which people hate enough as is.
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