Post by knoffles on Jul 26, 2018 19:52:03 GMT
This post is an amalgamation of the thread of the same name from the Chaos Dwarf Online forum.
I’ve tried to put comments into distinct sections, tidying up language, removing duplicate comments. I’ve also chopped and pasted together the comments from the various contributors (listed at the bottom). To clarify, the only part I've written is the initial section describing the Hellcannon's rules. None of the other comments or thoughts are mine, it's not an army i've used and so I may have made some errors when doing the above. I’ll more than happily move bits around/add/amend if people have suggestions or pick up errors.
Knoffles
The Hellcannon:
This is a monster that has daemonic attacks, causes Terror, is Unbreakable and is a large target. With T6, 5 wounds, a 4+ armour and a 5++ ward it is pretty tough. 5 WS4, S5 magical attacks from the Cannon and 3 WS4 S 3 attacks from the Dwarves means it can also put out the damage in melee too.
At the start of each of it's turns, take a LD test and if it fails, it must be pivoted to face the nearest enemy unit and moved 3D6 towards it (counts as random movement).
The cannon fires as a stone thrower with a Str 5(10) with the target under the central hole taking D6 wounds. It also has it's own misfire table, which is much harsher than the normal one, with various amusing results (normally for your opponent).
As per the 25 Feb 2013 errata, the cost of the Hellcannon is now 210pts.
The Hellcannon Shooting:
As it fires like a stone thrower, there is a lot of inaccuracy with this beast. For Warriors of Chaos, I've almost stopped taking it entirely, as its 1-2 shots a game usually veer wide. With our access to RE-ROLL, we can make this bad boy shine. Always bring a Daemon Smith Baby sitter and keep him within 3” for the reroll (as per the FW FAQ), getting to reroll that S5/S10 template is awesome.
For your first shot (if you have turn 1) find out where your opponents BSB and general is or if there is a scary unit, shoot it, it might run of the table before it can do a thing due to the panic and -1 to their LD. (As stated later this combines well with a number of spells to cause a LD bomb).
Regarding pivoting before firing: The Hellcannon is a Monster, not a war machine - therefore, it is not entitled to the free pivot. I have seen a lot of people misinterpreting the erratum quoted, because they apparently never read it in the actual context. Here is the full upgraded sentence: "Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines) have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules" [Italics mine]. It has nothing to do at all with the pivot.
Now, the Hellcannon is not a war machine, but "is fired following the rules of a stone thrower"[Italics mine]. And as the BRB p. 108 tells us: "The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe)" [Italics mine].
The part containing rules for the war machine troop type consists of pages 108-110; the part on firing a weapon consists of pages 111-115. The free pivot rule - which is also specified as happening before firing - is in the first part. BRB p. 109: "before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)."
The rules for firing a stone thrower (and thus the Hellcannon) are in the second part. However, they do not contain any permission for a free pivot - which, as we have seen, happens before firing the stone thrower anyway (Thanks to FvonSigmaringen for clarification).
The Hellcannon in Combat:
The Hellcannon is a monster with handlers.
It charges normally like any other monster 2d6+base movement, unless the leadership test at the start of a turn is failed in which case it has random movement 3d6 (if you make contact with that nearest enemy it is treated as charging) for that player turn.
In close combat you get the attacks of the Hellcannon, plus the dwarfs, and thunderstomp at the end of the CC assuming it can stomp the right troop types (war beasts, swarms, and infantry just like anything else with the rule).
Enemies attacking the Hellcannon roll to attack and wound against the Hellcannon (not the dwarfs). Take your AS and Ward normally. If any wounds get through, roll 1d6. On a 1-4 the wound comes off the Hellcannon. On a 5-6 one of your dwarf crew are removed. When all the dwarfs die in either CC or because your Hellcannon ate them, you have to take a monster reaction test to see what happens. If the Hellcannon dies before all of its dwarfs...remove all from play.
In combat, it is a beast, but only against the right match ups. It can hold up and win vs most infantry that are low-med. strength. It can terror bomb flanks and just hold down some units meant to deny you steadfast.
The Hellcannon victories RELY on thunderstomp. It has a few attacks for a wide base and not great WS. The thunderstomp turns the tide. If you're going against Cav/MI/ MC etc, you lose this. However, even losing it, you're unbreakable, so no big deal. You're just not going to win it. Careful as the Hellcannon isn't cheap and you'd ideally like to recoup its costs.
That being said, holding a flank of your 25-40 Infernal Guard could be priceless.
The Hellcannon suffers against High ST troops, S5 and S6+ really chew through him. With a low I, it's doubtful that he'll get to hit back.
Cav units on the charge can often make mincemeat of the Hellcannon. I've seen Boar boyz, Dragon Princes, IC knights just obliterate him on the charge. So be careful.
Why take one/Strategy
Not sure I've got a lot of carefully thought-out strategy for the Hellcannon... My basic strategy with the Hellcannon that works most games is: Turn 1 - shoot, Turn 2 - get into combat. Most games I deploy a Daemonsmith/Sorcerer-Prophet within 3" of my Hellcannon so that I can get the re-roll for shooting on Turn 1 (remember that although the Hellcannon has the troop type "Monster" it currently benefits from the Daemonsmith's ability to grant re-rolls when shooting, as per the FW FAQ). After this, however, I usually try to get it into combat on Turn 2 and forget about keeping it close to any characters that grant the re-roll. If I manage to get out of combat again I usually try to setup for another shot unless I'm setup for a killer charge. After any more shooting with the Hellcannon takes place I try to get it back into combat for sure if I can.
I absolutely love Hellcannons. In my opinion you should take 2 to get the most out of what they can do. Like all these distinguished folks have already pointed out nothing is better at holding down and anchoring your flanks.
Likewise, the -1Ld panic test is great at picking off units that are not within the "Inspiring Presence" and/or "Hold Your Ground" range. Or taking out/whittling down dangerous units before they make contact with you. S5(10) can take a bite out of just about any infantry in the game and many cavalry units as well. Couple that with Flaming Sword of Rhuin and even T5-6 start sweating.
In the psychological aspect of the game, these guys are aces. Put one down and your opponent gets worried, put down two and all of a sudden your opponent will start revising their battle plans. These revisions will most likely lead to a mistake or two on your opponent’s part.
The Hellcannon is a great psychological monster. It adds a very interesting threat to our list. Making units panic, from afar. As with most elite armies, we're often outnumbered.
Having access to the lore of death spell: Doom and Darkness, also works great as the targeted unit will have to take a panic test as -4 (-3 for the spell and an additional -1 from the hellcannon).
Alternatively the -LD spell from our amazing lore (Dark Subjection) can be used. Either way, it really means dark times for many armies. Roughly half the armies out there have mediocre to lacklustre leadership (non-characters) and you can easily make them sweat.
Hellcannons are the ultimate flank protection. Shooting Unbreakable T6 Monster and Handler units. Too hard for most chaff to tie up, too powerful to ignore. They force hard decisions on your enemies.
A build i love is 2 Daemonsmiths + 2 Hellcannons + 2 Magma Cannons, 1 of each above set up on each flank. All of a sudden your opponent has to worry about a potential of 4 S5 templates knocking on their door. Which, thanks to the Daemonsmith’s abilities, are a fairly accurate 4 S5 templates.
I personally sit back with Hellcannons and fire until mid to late game. I feel they work best with ziggurat style lists that revolve around staying still and shooting. Due to their big template, an inability to flee, they can be a liability in many cases, while also exposing your flanks to things like ambushers or highly mobile enemy units.
The only thing that sucks about these guys is that they compete with the Destroyer for Rare points. However, picking which one depends on how one wants his/her army to function as either way you will most likely catch some flack whether it be the lone Destroyer or the double Hellcannons.
In closing, bring two. Even in a WoC army 2 of these babies will put some hurt on your opponent in the shooting, close combat, and unspoken psychological aspects of the game.
Is it worth taking?
While its movement is only 3, it still serves as a good piece of arty. Also once someone does close with you, you can let the beast charge. Its reclassification as a monster and handler now makes it much easier to actually have it charge someone, whereas before you had to wait for it to go wild which on LD9 was not exactly an easy task.
It is effective as a piece of arty and if someone is silly enough to get close enough (which, if locking down a flank, could happen quite often!), they're going to have a bad time of it. I just see its overall utility going down somewhat-not to nothing, or even bad, mind you but enough that, as often as not in a LoA list, points can be spent elsewhere.
It's not a no-brainer, but is still a decent shooty, crunchy monster. In my opinion, while still an above-average choice, in a LoA list there are other options that do just as good in their roles as the HC did when it could be offensive, and the LoA (in my opinion, of course) is generally all about the offense, and being aggressive. The M3 vs M6 was a painfully debuff on the unit, and almost every list I've made since the WoC book has come out, that decrease in speed has been the deciding factor in choosing other pieces over it.
Is it worth taking? Yes and no. It’s a great model stat wise very much so, the problem is though, is there a better buy in the book?
Kinda depends on what you want to do. I am thinking of going back to a dreadquake, only because it only cost 5 more points (with slave ogre) and its shots do soooo much more. Of course a hellcannon can be used to fight where a dreadquake can’t. It really is a hard choice to make.
For me the melee capability is the biggest factor and makes it an obvious better choice over the dreadquake. The shooting damage is comparable.
Yeah but with the dreadquake you can dish out way more damage. Any horde units having to take 40 difficult terrain tests is huge.
And the dreadquake miniature looks much better!
But the hellcannon can also cause the unit to flee off the table due to panic and that is huge. Combining with doom and darkness will dramatically increase the chances of this.
Clarifications
Being a Monster, the Hellcannon doesn't deploy with your warmachines, which I've seen a few people do.
Remember it’s a monster+ handlers so if a cannon ball hits it, you have a 5++ ward save before rolling to allocate the shot between the monster and crew and before you roll for multiple wounds.
Leadership Tests (e.g. Lore of Death's spirit leech).
Do you use the cannon or crew’s leadership?
You use the highest leadership value for this. So the Hellcannon is LD 9.
Warhammer FAQ 1.6 Wrote:
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
Initiative tests
These should normally be taken with the highest initiative in the unit (in this case the Dwarves mighty '2').
BRB p. 10: Where a model (or a unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with cavalry, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values.
BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p. 4:
Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.
(Thanks again to FvonSigmaringen for the clarification).
This means that you need to be very wary for anything that forces an initiative test (e.g. Skaven Brass Orb). The Skaven spell Crack's Call is just as bad for the Hellcannon too (remember that the Hellcannon isn't a Warmachine so you don't save on a 5+, it's a Monster, so you have to take the initiative test with the abysmal Initiative 2!).
Q. Does the Hellcannon benefit from the Daemonsmith’s re-rolls?
A. Yes, as long as they are selected as part of a Legion of Azgorh army. (as per the forgeworld errata 23 Feb 2013)
Contributors (in no order and apologies if I missed anyone)
The Immortal Beard
Noone
Da Crusha
Geist
Nicodemus
Rpitts2004
Ironmonger
Lukealexandermorton
BAS_2312
Godhead
Blackspine
I’ve tried to put comments into distinct sections, tidying up language, removing duplicate comments. I’ve also chopped and pasted together the comments from the various contributors (listed at the bottom). To clarify, the only part I've written is the initial section describing the Hellcannon's rules. None of the other comments or thoughts are mine, it's not an army i've used and so I may have made some errors when doing the above. I’ll more than happily move bits around/add/amend if people have suggestions or pick up errors.
Knoffles
The Hellcannon:
This is a monster that has daemonic attacks, causes Terror, is Unbreakable and is a large target. With T6, 5 wounds, a 4+ armour and a 5++ ward it is pretty tough. 5 WS4, S5 magical attacks from the Cannon and 3 WS4 S 3 attacks from the Dwarves means it can also put out the damage in melee too.
At the start of each of it's turns, take a LD test and if it fails, it must be pivoted to face the nearest enemy unit and moved 3D6 towards it (counts as random movement).
The cannon fires as a stone thrower with a Str 5(10) with the target under the central hole taking D6 wounds. It also has it's own misfire table, which is much harsher than the normal one, with various amusing results (normally for your opponent).
As per the 25 Feb 2013 errata, the cost of the Hellcannon is now 210pts.
The Hellcannon Shooting:
As it fires like a stone thrower, there is a lot of inaccuracy with this beast. For Warriors of Chaos, I've almost stopped taking it entirely, as its 1-2 shots a game usually veer wide. With our access to RE-ROLL, we can make this bad boy shine. Always bring a Daemon Smith Baby sitter and keep him within 3” for the reroll (as per the FW FAQ), getting to reroll that S5/S10 template is awesome.
For your first shot (if you have turn 1) find out where your opponents BSB and general is or if there is a scary unit, shoot it, it might run of the table before it can do a thing due to the panic and -1 to their LD. (As stated later this combines well with a number of spells to cause a LD bomb).
Regarding pivoting before firing: The Hellcannon is a Monster, not a war machine - therefore, it is not entitled to the free pivot. I have seen a lot of people misinterpreting the erratum quoted, because they apparently never read it in the actual context. Here is the full upgraded sentence: "Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines) have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules" [Italics mine]. It has nothing to do at all with the pivot.
Now, the Hellcannon is not a war machine, but "is fired following the rules of a stone thrower"[Italics mine]. And as the BRB p. 108 tells us: "The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe)" [Italics mine].
The part containing rules for the war machine troop type consists of pages 108-110; the part on firing a weapon consists of pages 111-115. The free pivot rule - which is also specified as happening before firing - is in the first part. BRB p. 109: "before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)."
The rules for firing a stone thrower (and thus the Hellcannon) are in the second part. However, they do not contain any permission for a free pivot - which, as we have seen, happens before firing the stone thrower anyway (Thanks to FvonSigmaringen for clarification).
The Hellcannon in Combat:
The Hellcannon is a monster with handlers.
It charges normally like any other monster 2d6+base movement, unless the leadership test at the start of a turn is failed in which case it has random movement 3d6 (if you make contact with that nearest enemy it is treated as charging) for that player turn.
In close combat you get the attacks of the Hellcannon, plus the dwarfs, and thunderstomp at the end of the CC assuming it can stomp the right troop types (war beasts, swarms, and infantry just like anything else with the rule).
Enemies attacking the Hellcannon roll to attack and wound against the Hellcannon (not the dwarfs). Take your AS and Ward normally. If any wounds get through, roll 1d6. On a 1-4 the wound comes off the Hellcannon. On a 5-6 one of your dwarf crew are removed. When all the dwarfs die in either CC or because your Hellcannon ate them, you have to take a monster reaction test to see what happens. If the Hellcannon dies before all of its dwarfs...remove all from play.
In combat, it is a beast, but only against the right match ups. It can hold up and win vs most infantry that are low-med. strength. It can terror bomb flanks and just hold down some units meant to deny you steadfast.
The Hellcannon victories RELY on thunderstomp. It has a few attacks for a wide base and not great WS. The thunderstomp turns the tide. If you're going against Cav/MI/ MC etc, you lose this. However, even losing it, you're unbreakable, so no big deal. You're just not going to win it. Careful as the Hellcannon isn't cheap and you'd ideally like to recoup its costs.
That being said, holding a flank of your 25-40 Infernal Guard could be priceless.
The Hellcannon suffers against High ST troops, S5 and S6+ really chew through him. With a low I, it's doubtful that he'll get to hit back.
Cav units on the charge can often make mincemeat of the Hellcannon. I've seen Boar boyz, Dragon Princes, IC knights just obliterate him on the charge. So be careful.
Why take one/Strategy
Not sure I've got a lot of carefully thought-out strategy for the Hellcannon... My basic strategy with the Hellcannon that works most games is: Turn 1 - shoot, Turn 2 - get into combat. Most games I deploy a Daemonsmith/Sorcerer-Prophet within 3" of my Hellcannon so that I can get the re-roll for shooting on Turn 1 (remember that although the Hellcannon has the troop type "Monster" it currently benefits from the Daemonsmith's ability to grant re-rolls when shooting, as per the FW FAQ). After this, however, I usually try to get it into combat on Turn 2 and forget about keeping it close to any characters that grant the re-roll. If I manage to get out of combat again I usually try to setup for another shot unless I'm setup for a killer charge. After any more shooting with the Hellcannon takes place I try to get it back into combat for sure if I can.
I absolutely love Hellcannons. In my opinion you should take 2 to get the most out of what they can do. Like all these distinguished folks have already pointed out nothing is better at holding down and anchoring your flanks.
Likewise, the -1Ld panic test is great at picking off units that are not within the "Inspiring Presence" and/or "Hold Your Ground" range. Or taking out/whittling down dangerous units before they make contact with you. S5(10) can take a bite out of just about any infantry in the game and many cavalry units as well. Couple that with Flaming Sword of Rhuin and even T5-6 start sweating.
In the psychological aspect of the game, these guys are aces. Put one down and your opponent gets worried, put down two and all of a sudden your opponent will start revising their battle plans. These revisions will most likely lead to a mistake or two on your opponent’s part.
The Hellcannon is a great psychological monster. It adds a very interesting threat to our list. Making units panic, from afar. As with most elite armies, we're often outnumbered.
Having access to the lore of death spell: Doom and Darkness, also works great as the targeted unit will have to take a panic test as -4 (-3 for the spell and an additional -1 from the hellcannon).
Alternatively the -LD spell from our amazing lore (Dark Subjection) can be used. Either way, it really means dark times for many armies. Roughly half the armies out there have mediocre to lacklustre leadership (non-characters) and you can easily make them sweat.
Hellcannons are the ultimate flank protection. Shooting Unbreakable T6 Monster and Handler units. Too hard for most chaff to tie up, too powerful to ignore. They force hard decisions on your enemies.
A build i love is 2 Daemonsmiths + 2 Hellcannons + 2 Magma Cannons, 1 of each above set up on each flank. All of a sudden your opponent has to worry about a potential of 4 S5 templates knocking on their door. Which, thanks to the Daemonsmith’s abilities, are a fairly accurate 4 S5 templates.
I personally sit back with Hellcannons and fire until mid to late game. I feel they work best with ziggurat style lists that revolve around staying still and shooting. Due to their big template, an inability to flee, they can be a liability in many cases, while also exposing your flanks to things like ambushers or highly mobile enemy units.
The only thing that sucks about these guys is that they compete with the Destroyer for Rare points. However, picking which one depends on how one wants his/her army to function as either way you will most likely catch some flack whether it be the lone Destroyer or the double Hellcannons.
In closing, bring two. Even in a WoC army 2 of these babies will put some hurt on your opponent in the shooting, close combat, and unspoken psychological aspects of the game.
Is it worth taking?
While its movement is only 3, it still serves as a good piece of arty. Also once someone does close with you, you can let the beast charge. Its reclassification as a monster and handler now makes it much easier to actually have it charge someone, whereas before you had to wait for it to go wild which on LD9 was not exactly an easy task.
It is effective as a piece of arty and if someone is silly enough to get close enough (which, if locking down a flank, could happen quite often!), they're going to have a bad time of it. I just see its overall utility going down somewhat-not to nothing, or even bad, mind you but enough that, as often as not in a LoA list, points can be spent elsewhere.
It's not a no-brainer, but is still a decent shooty, crunchy monster. In my opinion, while still an above-average choice, in a LoA list there are other options that do just as good in their roles as the HC did when it could be offensive, and the LoA (in my opinion, of course) is generally all about the offense, and being aggressive. The M3 vs M6 was a painfully debuff on the unit, and almost every list I've made since the WoC book has come out, that decrease in speed has been the deciding factor in choosing other pieces over it.
Is it worth taking? Yes and no. It’s a great model stat wise very much so, the problem is though, is there a better buy in the book?
Kinda depends on what you want to do. I am thinking of going back to a dreadquake, only because it only cost 5 more points (with slave ogre) and its shots do soooo much more. Of course a hellcannon can be used to fight where a dreadquake can’t. It really is a hard choice to make.
For me the melee capability is the biggest factor and makes it an obvious better choice over the dreadquake. The shooting damage is comparable.
Yeah but with the dreadquake you can dish out way more damage. Any horde units having to take 40 difficult terrain tests is huge.
And the dreadquake miniature looks much better!
But the hellcannon can also cause the unit to flee off the table due to panic and that is huge. Combining with doom and darkness will dramatically increase the chances of this.
Clarifications
Being a Monster, the Hellcannon doesn't deploy with your warmachines, which I've seen a few people do.
Remember it’s a monster+ handlers so if a cannon ball hits it, you have a 5++ ward save before rolling to allocate the shot between the monster and crew and before you roll for multiple wounds.
Leadership Tests (e.g. Lore of Death's spirit leech).
Do you use the cannon or crew’s leadership?
You use the highest leadership value for this. So the Hellcannon is LD 9.
Warhammer FAQ 1.6 Wrote:
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
Initiative tests
These should normally be taken with the highest initiative in the unit (in this case the Dwarves mighty '2').
BRB p. 10: Where a model (or a unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with cavalry, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values.
BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p. 4:
Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.
(Thanks again to FvonSigmaringen for the clarification).
This means that you need to be very wary for anything that forces an initiative test (e.g. Skaven Brass Orb). The Skaven spell Crack's Call is just as bad for the Hellcannon too (remember that the Hellcannon isn't a Warmachine so you don't save on a 5+, it's a Monster, so you have to take the initiative test with the abysmal Initiative 2!).
Q. Does the Hellcannon benefit from the Daemonsmith’s re-rolls?
A. Yes, as long as they are selected as part of a Legion of Azgorh army. (as per the forgeworld errata 23 Feb 2013)
Contributors (in no order and apologies if I missed anyone)
The Immortal Beard
Noone
Da Crusha
Geist
Nicodemus
Rpitts2004
Ironmonger
Lukealexandermorton
BAS_2312
Godhead
Blackspine