Post by knoffles on Jul 27, 2018 17:02:21 GMT
This post is an amalgamation of the thread of the same name from the Chaos Dwarf Online forum.
I’ve tried to put comments into distinct sections, tidying up language, removing duplicate comments and re-writing parts altogether. I’ve also chopped and pasted together the comments from the various contributors (listed at the bottom) especially under the Strategy/thoughts section.
I've also added in the first section describing the rules.
Knoffles
The Iron Daemon
The Iron Daemon (ID) is the Chaos Dwarf equivalent of a steam engine. It can be used to tow other warmachines around the battlefield or fielded by itself as a unique wamachine. It is Unbreakable, causes Terror and counts as a large target.
It has a movement of 6 and may move normally and it may fire weapons while moving without penalty. If it wants to charge or march, you roll 2D6 and add the movement (as normal) but you can only move straight forward (no wheels/turns etc.). If a double 1 is rolled, the model may not move.
If it moves into contact with a friend or foe as part of its normal movement (in a similar way as a model with random movement), then it still causes impact hits but the ID model gets the ASL rule for the first round of combat). It cannot overrun or pursue.
Low or flimsy battlefield obstacles (such as walls/hedges etc.) cannot stop the Iron Daemon. It just smashes through them and if you are able, they should be removed once the machine has moved over/through them.
In defence, the Engine has a 3+ save, a toughness of 7, and an impressive 7 wounds!
Its offensive capabilities are also good. It has 3 dwarf crew with the standard WS4, S3 attacks. It can cause D6+2 impact hits at a whopping Strength of 8! In proceeding turns of combat (after the first), it may make a thunderstomp.
It also has an 18” ranged weapon called the Steam Cannonade that can only fire straight forward. Roll 2 artillery dice and pick the highest one to decide the number of shots fired. The shots are resolved at S6 AP and have the multiple wounds D3.
You only misfire if both dice have misfires (use the standard BRB blackfire table), however if you get a destroyed result, only the weapon is destroyed. The Iron Daemon just suffers D6 wounds with no save allowed.
In terms of upgrade options, you have 2 available to be purchased. You can choose to replace the Steam Cannonade with a Skullcracker. This allows you to roll an extra D6 for both impact hits and thunderstomps. The second is to make the machine Hellbound, this adds +1 to both the wound and toughness stats, and the attacks are now magical. However if a misfire is rolled, on top of the normal effects, the crew will also suffer D3 wounds.
It is expensive, with the basic model costing just under 300pts and just under 350pts with both upgrades
Movement
The ID can pivot as many times as it likes during its normal movement (as it is treated as a chariot) but if it engages its steam boiler power to charge or march, it can only move straight forward 2D6+6”.
There have been a number of discussions over whether it can pivot at the start of the movement, before engaging its steam boiler. A number of players quote the below rule:
BRB pg 27 – Lone models: Individual models, such as chariots (which are the movement rules the Iron Daemon follows unless specified otherwise), can pivot and turn freely at any point during their movement. This would include at the beginning of their movement.
Since the Iron Daemon's rules for the boiler movement specifically preclude wheeling or turning of any kind, and say "move forward in a straight line", I don't see why they would get to have one "free" pivot at the beginning. Random Movement lets you pivot like that, but the Iron Daemon doesn't get the Random Movement special rule - it just moves "forward in a straight line" a certain distance, and can't turn or wheel as it does so.
It’s worth considering never to declare a charge with the ID and instead just move into contact with a unit. The charge range of 2D6, combined with only being able to move straight forward, makes it too unreliable. If you just use the normal movement, it acts in the same way as a random movement, in so far as, the enemy cannot make a charge reaction (flee, stand and shoot etc.). It also allows you to pivot to move into contact with them. This does then mean your opponent's get ASF. With the crew only having an initiative of 2 this will very likely give your opponents re-rolls to hit but as the enemy attacks will go against the ID, it shouldn't be a big drawback.
As per the discussions, apart from charging, the only other time you would get the impact hits when moving into contact with a unit (friend or foe) is when it happened unintentionally. One example of this would be where a unit chose a flee reaction and ran through another unit (trying the 'double flee' tactic). In this case, after the first unit has fled, the ID wouldn't need to redirect into the second unit (unlike most other chargers). If it can reach the second unit, the ID would move into contact with them (rather than stopping 1" away) and thus would get the impact hits (and be in combat if an opponent, or then move back 1" if a friendly model). This does then mean your opponent will get ASF and with the ID crew only having an initiative of 2 this will very likely give your opponents re-rolls to hit but as the enemy attacks will go against the ID with it's inherent toughness, it shouldn't be a big drawback.
It is potentially possible to move into contact with a unit when 'marching' and this could also be unintentional, say if you were trying to get out of a charge arc. If the unit was 18" away (the maximum 'march' distance) and you rolled this distance, it could be argued it was unintentional to hit that unit as it is a very low probability of reaching the aforesaid unit.
Conversely, if the unit were 9" away there is an extremely high likelihood you would hit them and so it could be said to be intentional. In this scenario, you would not get impact hits (and your opponent wouldn't get ASF either). Now whether you would still enter combat or stop 1" away in this scenario is not clear.
The whole, 'can you move into contact with a unit when moving' is a bit of a grey area.
The BRB (pg 16 - paragraph 5) states: "if you want to attack an enemy you must charge him - you simply cannot move into close combat without having declared a charge"
Now there are rules which will 'override' (for want of a better word) this, such as random movement but the ID doesn't have this rule.
Could be argued that the Iron Daemon 'march' could move you into contact with a unit (and thus combat)?
I could definitely see an argument for this. The Army Book does say: "if the total movement would bring the ID into contact with a unit unintentionally (i.e. not as he result of a declared charge), roll for impact hits as normal".
Because it says "not as the result of a charge", this could well mean it refers to the 'march' move (nothing says it is just from situations such as the double flee example given above, only that the move wasn't part of a charge), especially due to the random nature of the move.
The fact they even put a section in the Army Book about unintentionally moving into contact with a unit (and calling the rule lumbering and unstoppable), to me, shows it is possible to move into contact with a unit outside of the normal rules.
However after saying that, if you choose to play it this way, then without a doubt it could be considered gamey behaviour. The question is, "at what distance would you say marching into contact becomes intentional"? Is it after the average move?
Because of this ambiguity, it could be further argued that any march move that could potentially take you into contact with an enemy unit, would be considered 'intentional' and so no impact hits would occur. I would however still say you finish in combat with that unit.
Shooting
The cannonade is probably not as destructive as you think it should be as it will only hit on a 4+ at short range (up to 9”), due to the BS3 of the crew, or 5+ at long range. Note it can move and shoot with no penalty and doesn’t have the multiple shots modifier either.
With a -4 to armour saves and the high strength of the shots, it can rip apart most things if it hits them. It can have a large psychological impact, as it is basically a moving Organ Gun and works nicely as deterrent for fast moving units seeking to outflank us.
The St6 D3 wounds shots from the steam cannonade are awesome against monstrous infantry or monsters and helps offset the lack of melee ability against these types of targets.
The Cannonade can move up to 6" and shoot without suffering the normal -1 to hit for moving.
Skullcracker Upgrade
2D6+2 impact hits and 2D6 thunderstomps at S8 can be a terrifying prospect for opponents and will decimate any smaller elite units (expensive cav/monstrous cav etc. are a prime target).
If the Skullcracker left the cannonade intact or was a straight swop I'd say take it but to pay an additional 30 points for something that reduces the versatility of a model that costs as much as it does, is somewhat debatable if the upgrade is worthwhile.
Hellbound Upgrade
For 25 points you can gain an additional wound and pip of toughness (putting both to 8). The upgrade also makes the (impact and thunderstomp) attacks magical (see below clarification section). You also gain the fear rule, though as the model has Terror already it has no impact.
The negative side of this upgrade is that the ID will suffer D3 wounds on a misfire (pg 175). However given that a misfire is only suffered if both artillery dice roll a misfire (pg 177), the odds of this are quite low.
Whether you take it will depend on how much you want the magical attacks and extra W & T. Some people swear by it and 25 points is quite cheap for the upgrade.
Strategy/thoughts
Because it is so tricky to charge with, you invariably have a turn or two where I'm just moving to get into position and that usually lets me fire my cannonade into something. While it's useful for knocking down Ogres and such, it's also a quick way to get rid of other pesky redirectors coming your way.
One of the major drawbacks with the model is, after the initial turn of impact hits, you rely on your thunderstomp for damage and so against anything bigger than infantry, you won’t get this and so will likely struggle to cause any damage. With unbreakable and the high wounds/toughness of the unit, they may find it difficult to kill you but it will effectively be tarpitted. Setting up a charge really needs it to work in conjunction with at least one other unit (Preferably a nice large Infernal Guard with a Castellan) so the target unit can be held in place while the Iron daemon charges at a flank.
Conversely it is very effective on infantry based armies like High Elf, chaos, beastmen etc. and can be successfully used to grind down particularly powerful units from them.
Its 60-100 mm base is quite nice to avoid stone throwers but don’t face cannons head on.
One thing to watch for is an opponent who takes a magic user with the lore of metal the lore attribute that mean that the armour save is used as the roll to wound can really put a crimp in an Iron daemon’s day.
Terrain is the bane of this model's existence. Deployment is pretty critical to how this guy will perform. If he's caught on the wrong side of a piece of terrain mid-battle, it's basically out of action for the entire game.
I use the Iron Daemon in nearly every one of my lists. Why? Well it looks awesome for one! But also because it adds some strategic options. Typically I deploy it in the middle to cut my opponents forces in half and deal with their army on one side at a time. The Extra wound and T with Hell bound are really nice to fill this blocker role and take some hits (there are a lot of S6 hits out there...). Also the Cannonde has racked up a lot of kills for me.
I wish the skull crusher option was useful as I would love to field it. But it is in many ways a reduction in the capacity of the iron demon, adding insult to injury for its higher cost. Particularly in a tournament setting its going to be a big paper weight when you run into ogres or cav heavy armies.
I think another thing i have found when using the iron Daemon is that they need a "Get outa Jail" buddy unit to stay close. Opposing players can easily lock down the iron demon with Fast Cav, spirit hosts, Solitary mounted heroes, and things like eagles. Since you can't stomp these things they are tying up your big point unit with something small.
So you need something to counter charge enemy units locking you down. I like to use hobgoblin Khans on a wolf with a dinky magic sword. This takes care of most chaff and those annoying ethereals. You can also keep him close to a shooting block (defensive) or advancing with fireborn/Bull centaurs (offensive). A lot of opponents won’t have something to annoy you so it’s important to make your Iron Daemon "buddy" something that is not a purely dedicated baby sitter, and can perform other functions (like stepping on Mangler Squigs).
Clarifications
Steam Cannonade
If you take the Hellbound upgrade do the Steam Cannonade’s shots become magical?
Edit: This was cleared up in the Errata 25 Feb 2013. I've also included the other FAQ responses relating to the Iron Daemon.
Q. On page 193 under the Iron Daemon options, it specifies that “only Impact Hits and Thunderstomp of the machine, not the crew, become magical attacks”. Does this means that shots fired by the Cannonade of a Hellbound Iron Daemon are not considered as magical attacks?
A. The wording on page 193 is intended specifically to divide the Iron Daemon's own attacks from those of its crew, which are not affected by the Hellbound rule. Its shooting attacks are affected as per page 175.
Q. Can an Iron Daemon benefit from the re-roll granted to a war machine by the Infernal Engineer rule?
A. No. The Iron Daemon is a Unique Unit and not a War Machine as shown in its troop type.
Q. Can the Iron Daemon stand and shoot?
A. No, it cannot.
Q. What is meant by the phrase “may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so”?
A. It means that it does not suffer the normal -1 to hit for moving and shooting.
Q. The Steam Cannonade fires “at a target directly ahead”. Does this mean within the front arc or literally directly ahead, using the width of the Iron Daemon base as a reference.
A. Directly ahead, using the width of the Iron Daemon’s base as a reference - it cannot traverse.
Q. Since the Iron Daemon cannot wheel or turn during a charge, does this mean that when it contacts a unit it does not ‘close the door’ and the charged unit ‘closes the door’ instead?
A. If an Iron Daemon makes contact with an enemy unit then the normal rules apply for combats and the Iron Daemon is allowed to ‘close the door’. This is the only time that the model is allowed to wheel. When charging the Iron Daemon must make contact with the facing of the charged unit that it started in, otherwise it counts as a failed charge.
Contributors
Volgon
Grimbold Blackhammer
Vardan Painkiller
Da Crusha
Skink
Thommy H
Ender SpiteSworn
I’ve tried to put comments into distinct sections, tidying up language, removing duplicate comments and re-writing parts altogether. I’ve also chopped and pasted together the comments from the various contributors (listed at the bottom) especially under the Strategy/thoughts section.
I've also added in the first section describing the rules.
Knoffles
The Iron Daemon
The Iron Daemon (ID) is the Chaos Dwarf equivalent of a steam engine. It can be used to tow other warmachines around the battlefield or fielded by itself as a unique wamachine. It is Unbreakable, causes Terror and counts as a large target.
It has a movement of 6 and may move normally and it may fire weapons while moving without penalty. If it wants to charge or march, you roll 2D6 and add the movement (as normal) but you can only move straight forward (no wheels/turns etc.). If a double 1 is rolled, the model may not move.
If it moves into contact with a friend or foe as part of its normal movement (in a similar way as a model with random movement), then it still causes impact hits but the ID model gets the ASL rule for the first round of combat). It cannot overrun or pursue.
Low or flimsy battlefield obstacles (such as walls/hedges etc.) cannot stop the Iron Daemon. It just smashes through them and if you are able, they should be removed once the machine has moved over/through them.
In defence, the Engine has a 3+ save, a toughness of 7, and an impressive 7 wounds!
Its offensive capabilities are also good. It has 3 dwarf crew with the standard WS4, S3 attacks. It can cause D6+2 impact hits at a whopping Strength of 8! In proceeding turns of combat (after the first), it may make a thunderstomp.
It also has an 18” ranged weapon called the Steam Cannonade that can only fire straight forward. Roll 2 artillery dice and pick the highest one to decide the number of shots fired. The shots are resolved at S6 AP and have the multiple wounds D3.
You only misfire if both dice have misfires (use the standard BRB blackfire table), however if you get a destroyed result, only the weapon is destroyed. The Iron Daemon just suffers D6 wounds with no save allowed.
In terms of upgrade options, you have 2 available to be purchased. You can choose to replace the Steam Cannonade with a Skullcracker. This allows you to roll an extra D6 for both impact hits and thunderstomps. The second is to make the machine Hellbound, this adds +1 to both the wound and toughness stats, and the attacks are now magical. However if a misfire is rolled, on top of the normal effects, the crew will also suffer D3 wounds.
It is expensive, with the basic model costing just under 300pts and just under 350pts with both upgrades
Movement
The ID can pivot as many times as it likes during its normal movement (as it is treated as a chariot) but if it engages its steam boiler power to charge or march, it can only move straight forward 2D6+6”.
There have been a number of discussions over whether it can pivot at the start of the movement, before engaging its steam boiler. A number of players quote the below rule:
BRB pg 27 – Lone models: Individual models, such as chariots (which are the movement rules the Iron Daemon follows unless specified otherwise), can pivot and turn freely at any point during their movement. This would include at the beginning of their movement.
Since the Iron Daemon's rules for the boiler movement specifically preclude wheeling or turning of any kind, and say "move forward in a straight line", I don't see why they would get to have one "free" pivot at the beginning. Random Movement lets you pivot like that, but the Iron Daemon doesn't get the Random Movement special rule - it just moves "forward in a straight line" a certain distance, and can't turn or wheel as it does so.
As per the discussions, apart from charging, the only other time you would get the impact hits when moving into contact with a unit (friend or foe) is when it happened unintentionally. One example of this would be where a unit chose a flee reaction and ran through another unit (trying the 'double flee' tactic). In this case, after the first unit has fled, the ID wouldn't need to redirect into the second unit (unlike most other chargers). If it can reach the second unit, the ID would move into contact with them (rather than stopping 1" away) and thus would get the impact hits (and be in combat if an opponent, or then move back 1" if a friendly model). This does then mean your opponent will get ASF and with the ID crew only having an initiative of 2 this will very likely give your opponents re-rolls to hit but as the enemy attacks will go against the ID with it's inherent toughness, it shouldn't be a big drawback.
It is potentially possible to move into contact with a unit when 'marching' and this could also be unintentional, say if you were trying to get out of a charge arc. If the unit was 18" away (the maximum 'march' distance) and you rolled this distance, it could be argued it was unintentional to hit that unit as it is a very low probability of reaching the aforesaid unit.
Conversely, if the unit were 9" away there is an extremely high likelihood you would hit them and so it could be said to be intentional. In this scenario, you would not get impact hits (and your opponent wouldn't get ASF either). Now whether you would still enter combat or stop 1" away in this scenario is not clear.
The whole, 'can you move into contact with a unit when moving' is a bit of a grey area.
The BRB (pg 16 - paragraph 5) states: "if you want to attack an enemy you must charge him - you simply cannot move into close combat without having declared a charge"
Now there are rules which will 'override' (for want of a better word) this, such as random movement but the ID doesn't have this rule.
Could be argued that the Iron Daemon 'march' could move you into contact with a unit (and thus combat)?
I could definitely see an argument for this. The Army Book does say: "if the total movement would bring the ID into contact with a unit unintentionally (i.e. not as he result of a declared charge), roll for impact hits as normal".
Because it says "not as the result of a charge", this could well mean it refers to the 'march' move (nothing says it is just from situations such as the double flee example given above, only that the move wasn't part of a charge), especially due to the random nature of the move.
The fact they even put a section in the Army Book about unintentionally moving into contact with a unit (and calling the rule lumbering and unstoppable), to me, shows it is possible to move into contact with a unit outside of the normal rules.
However after saying that, if you choose to play it this way, then without a doubt it could be considered gamey behaviour. The question is, "at what distance would you say marching into contact becomes intentional"? Is it after the average move?
Because of this ambiguity, it could be further argued that any march move that could potentially take you into contact with an enemy unit, would be considered 'intentional' and so no impact hits would occur. I would however still say you finish in combat with that unit.
Shooting
The cannonade is probably not as destructive as you think it should be as it will only hit on a 4+ at short range (up to 9”), due to the BS3 of the crew, or 5+ at long range. Note it can move and shoot with no penalty and doesn’t have the multiple shots modifier either.
With a -4 to armour saves and the high strength of the shots, it can rip apart most things if it hits them. It can have a large psychological impact, as it is basically a moving Organ Gun and works nicely as deterrent for fast moving units seeking to outflank us.
The St6 D3 wounds shots from the steam cannonade are awesome against monstrous infantry or monsters and helps offset the lack of melee ability against these types of targets.
The Cannonade can move up to 6" and shoot without suffering the normal -1 to hit for moving.
Skullcracker Upgrade
2D6+2 impact hits and 2D6 thunderstomps at S8 can be a terrifying prospect for opponents and will decimate any smaller elite units (expensive cav/monstrous cav etc. are a prime target).
If the Skullcracker left the cannonade intact or was a straight swop I'd say take it but to pay an additional 30 points for something that reduces the versatility of a model that costs as much as it does, is somewhat debatable if the upgrade is worthwhile.
Hellbound Upgrade
For 25 points you can gain an additional wound and pip of toughness (putting both to 8). The upgrade also makes the (impact and thunderstomp) attacks magical (see below clarification section). You also gain the fear rule, though as the model has Terror already it has no impact.
The negative side of this upgrade is that the ID will suffer D3 wounds on a misfire (pg 175). However given that a misfire is only suffered if both artillery dice roll a misfire (pg 177), the odds of this are quite low.
Whether you take it will depend on how much you want the magical attacks and extra W & T. Some people swear by it and 25 points is quite cheap for the upgrade.
Strategy/thoughts
Because it is so tricky to charge with, you invariably have a turn or two where I'm just moving to get into position and that usually lets me fire my cannonade into something. While it's useful for knocking down Ogres and such, it's also a quick way to get rid of other pesky redirectors coming your way.
One of the major drawbacks with the model is, after the initial turn of impact hits, you rely on your thunderstomp for damage and so against anything bigger than infantry, you won’t get this and so will likely struggle to cause any damage. With unbreakable and the high wounds/toughness of the unit, they may find it difficult to kill you but it will effectively be tarpitted. Setting up a charge really needs it to work in conjunction with at least one other unit (Preferably a nice large Infernal Guard with a Castellan) so the target unit can be held in place while the Iron daemon charges at a flank.
Conversely it is very effective on infantry based armies like High Elf, chaos, beastmen etc. and can be successfully used to grind down particularly powerful units from them.
Its 60-100 mm base is quite nice to avoid stone throwers but don’t face cannons head on.
One thing to watch for is an opponent who takes a magic user with the lore of metal the lore attribute that mean that the armour save is used as the roll to wound can really put a crimp in an Iron daemon’s day.
Terrain is the bane of this model's existence. Deployment is pretty critical to how this guy will perform. If he's caught on the wrong side of a piece of terrain mid-battle, it's basically out of action for the entire game.
I use the Iron Daemon in nearly every one of my lists. Why? Well it looks awesome for one! But also because it adds some strategic options. Typically I deploy it in the middle to cut my opponents forces in half and deal with their army on one side at a time. The Extra wound and T with Hell bound are really nice to fill this blocker role and take some hits (there are a lot of S6 hits out there...). Also the Cannonde has racked up a lot of kills for me.
I wish the skull crusher option was useful as I would love to field it. But it is in many ways a reduction in the capacity of the iron demon, adding insult to injury for its higher cost. Particularly in a tournament setting its going to be a big paper weight when you run into ogres or cav heavy armies.
I think another thing i have found when using the iron Daemon is that they need a "Get outa Jail" buddy unit to stay close. Opposing players can easily lock down the iron demon with Fast Cav, spirit hosts, Solitary mounted heroes, and things like eagles. Since you can't stomp these things they are tying up your big point unit with something small.
So you need something to counter charge enemy units locking you down. I like to use hobgoblin Khans on a wolf with a dinky magic sword. This takes care of most chaff and those annoying ethereals. You can also keep him close to a shooting block (defensive) or advancing with fireborn/Bull centaurs (offensive). A lot of opponents won’t have something to annoy you so it’s important to make your Iron Daemon "buddy" something that is not a purely dedicated baby sitter, and can perform other functions (like stepping on Mangler Squigs).
Clarifications
Steam Cannonade
If you take the Hellbound upgrade do the Steam Cannonade’s shots become magical?
Edit: This was cleared up in the Errata 25 Feb 2013. I've also included the other FAQ responses relating to the Iron Daemon.
Q. On page 193 under the Iron Daemon options, it specifies that “only Impact Hits and Thunderstomp of the machine, not the crew, become magical attacks”. Does this means that shots fired by the Cannonade of a Hellbound Iron Daemon are not considered as magical attacks?
A. The wording on page 193 is intended specifically to divide the Iron Daemon's own attacks from those of its crew, which are not affected by the Hellbound rule. Its shooting attacks are affected as per page 175.
Q. Can an Iron Daemon benefit from the re-roll granted to a war machine by the Infernal Engineer rule?
A. No. The Iron Daemon is a Unique Unit and not a War Machine as shown in its troop type.
Q. Can the Iron Daemon stand and shoot?
A. No, it cannot.
Q. What is meant by the phrase “may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so”?
A. It means that it does not suffer the normal -1 to hit for moving and shooting.
Q. The Steam Cannonade fires “at a target directly ahead”. Does this mean within the front arc or literally directly ahead, using the width of the Iron Daemon base as a reference.
A. Directly ahead, using the width of the Iron Daemon’s base as a reference - it cannot traverse.
Q. Since the Iron Daemon cannot wheel or turn during a charge, does this mean that when it contacts a unit it does not ‘close the door’ and the charged unit ‘closes the door’ instead?
A. If an Iron Daemon makes contact with an enemy unit then the normal rules apply for combats and the Iron Daemon is allowed to ‘close the door’. This is the only time that the model is allowed to wheel. When charging the Iron Daemon must make contact with the facing of the charged unit that it started in, otherwise it counts as a failed charge.
Contributors
Volgon
Grimbold Blackhammer
Vardan Painkiller
Da Crusha
Skink
Thommy H
Ender SpiteSworn