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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 18:33:37 GMT
@ sedge: I meant to say that it is difficult for anyone else other than the controlling player to see whether this move is really unintential, thus leaving it open to abuse. That is presumably why the "nerfs" were added.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 18:39:51 GMT
It's treated as a chariot (last section of fluff text). So it can't march. But what if I make a normal move with the broilers? May I pivot first? The first paragraph states: "rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6" etc. So, in this respect, it is specified that it is not treated like a Chariot. You cannot make a normal move with the boilers. You either make a normal move, or you use the boilers, in which case "rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6" etc.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 28, 2018 18:52:36 GMT
It's treated as a chariot (last section of fluff text). So it can't march. But what if I make a normal move with the broilers? May I pivot first? The first paragraph states: "rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6" etc. So, in this respect, it is specified that it is not treated like a Chariot. You cannot make a normal move with the boilers. You either make a normal move, or you use the boilers, in which case "rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6" etc. What I meant was just to clarify that it can not ever March as it is treated as a chariot so that part of the rules is strangely worded.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 19:07:12 GMT
I would have to disagree. A normal move is a normal move, i.e. the distance moved cannot exceed the movement characteristic. To move more than the movement characteristic, you have to march, charge, flee or pursue. The Iron Daemon cannot flee or pursue. The normal move is covered in the second sentence of the first paragraph. Marching (or, if you prefer, movement that counts as marching) and charging are covered by the entirety of the 2D6 roll rule.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 28, 2018 19:22:52 GMT
An other question, may it shoot if using the boilers and not end up in combat? Given the FAQ: Q. What is meant by the phrase “may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so”? A. It means that it does not suffer the normal -1 to hit for moving and shooting. the answer is yes, but it would suffer the normal -1 to hit for moving and shooting. I would have to disagree. A normal move is a normal move, i.e. the distance moved cannot exceed the movement characteristic. To move more than the movement characteristic, you have to march, charge, flee or pursue. The Iron Daemon cannot flee or pursue. The normal move is covered in the second sentence of the first paragraph. Marching (or, if you prefer, movement that counts as marching) and charging are covered by the entirety of the 2D6 roll rule. I don't get how these two of your rulings work as if boilers count as marching and you cant march and shoot in the first place? So do I need to march test to use boilers if a unit within 8"? I am sorry if I am just dumb just trying to understand how I should read the rules.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 19:30:28 GMT
You are, in fact, correct: my answer regarding using the boiler and shooting was wrong. Well spotted! Quandoque bonus dormitat Fidelis.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 19:57:31 GMT
So do I need to march test to use boilers if a unit within 8"? That would seem to be the case. That said, and to confuse us all even more, this (and shooting) depends on how you interpret "instead of using the normal rules for marching." I assumed that this pertains just to movement, and not the other rules, in which case you cannot shoot and do need to test. However, if you interpret this as pertaining to all the rules, then you could shoot and do not need to test, because it is not contained in the Iron Daemon rules themselves.
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Post by knoffles on Jul 28, 2018 20:41:14 GMT
It has a movement of 6 and may move normally and it may fire weapons while moving without penalty. If it wants to charge or march, you roll 2D6 and add the movement (as normal) but you can only move straight forward (no wheels/turns etc.). If a double 1 is rolled, the model may not move. If it moves into contact with a friend or foe as part of its normal movement (in a similar way as a model with random movement), then it still causes impact hits but the ID model gets the ASL rule for the first round of combat). It cannot overrun or pursue. ... It’s worth considering never to declare a charge with the ID and instead just move into contact with a unit. The charge range of 2D6, combined with only being able to move straight forward, makes it too unreliable. If you just use the normal movement, it acts in the same way as a random movement, in so far as, the enemy cannot make a charge reaction (flee, stand and shoot etc.). It also allows you to pivot to move into contact with them. This does then mean you get ASL, but as only the crew attack with initiative and have a standard initiative of 2 anyway, this is not a big drawback. Is that possible? I thought the BRB prevented you from moving into base contact with an enemy unit without declaring a charge - so when doing a normal up to 6" move with the Iron Daemon, you can't use that to get into combat. I think the bit about it getting into combat unintentionally is if you engage the boiler to move faster, without declaring a charge, and then end up "unintentionally" in base contact. It gives your crew ASL opponent ASF, and you don't get the +1 to combat resolution for charging... but then your opponent won't have been able to make a charge reaction, and it negates a few other bonuses like regular Dwarves' Shieldwall, so perhaps there is a reason to do it. Cheers for your input (and you FvonSigmaringen/ strutsagget), i'm re-working this and moving it to the movement section. I've used the double flee example as a situation where you could unintentionally move into combat. sedge - The BRB (pg 16 - paragraph 5) states: "if you want to attack an enemy you must charge him - you simply cannot move into close combat without having declared a charge"
Now there are rules which will 'override' (for want of a better word) this, such as random movement but the ID doesn't have this rule. Could be argued that the Iron Daemon 'march' could move you into contact with a unit and thus combat? I could definitely see an argument for this. The AB does say: "if the total movement would bring the ID into contact with a unit unintentionally (i.e. not as he result of a declared charge), roll for impact hits as normal".Because it says "not as the result of a charge", this could well mean it refers to the 'march' move (nothing says it is just from situations such as the double flee, only that the move wasn't part of a charge), especially due to the random nature of the move. sedge's example of moving to avoid a charge arc is a good one (especially if the odds of connecting were low, such as if they were at the 18" maximum move distance). The fact they even put it in the rules (and called the rule lumbering and unstoppable), to me, strongly indicates they thought it was a definite possibility (yes I know that is likely a RAI vs RAW). Now conversely if you were making a 'march' move and the odds were good you would contact a unit (if the other unit were 9" away for example), then this would have to be thought of as intentional and though it could still be argued you would still end up in contact, you wouldn't get the impact hits (or give them ASF etc). I think the key to the argument 'for', is that they even said the ID could unintentionally move into contact with a unit. This itself shows it is possible to move into contact with a unit outside of the normal rules. If my thought flow is right (and i'm not saying it is, i'm just promoting discussions) then, without a doubt, it is gamey but if it is allowed, then we should include it so opponents were aware it is a possibility (in the same way some people 'could' choose to use slayer darts)
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Post by knoffles on Jul 28, 2018 20:44:54 GMT
So do I need to march test to use boilers if a unit within 8"? That would seem to be the case. That said, and to confuse us all even more, this (and shooting) depends on how you interpret "instead of using the normal rules for marching." I assumed that this pertains just to movement, and not the other rules, in which case you cannot shoot and do need to test. However, if you interpret this as pertaining to all the rules, then you could shoot and do not need to test, because it is not contained in the Iron Daemon rules themselves. Yep that interpretation is key. I would say it is likely just for movement but someone will always argue the other way. The ID also doesn't get the Relentless rule, which would clear the LD test for marching up.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 28, 2018 21:39:09 GMT
It is unbreakable, so its immune to psychology.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 22:25:34 GMT
@ strutsagget: Is that referring to the Ld test before marching? In that case, it is not applicable, because ItP only means you pass automatically all Panic, Fear and Terror tests.
@ knoffles: I should point out that the situation of the fleeing unit is as such not really covered. A fleeing unit cannot be in combat. A charge can bring a unit into contact with a fleeing unit, in which case the fleeing unit is destroyed. However, it is specified that the ID does not count as charging. Alternatively, you could just resolve the impact hits and then move the ID back 1", just like for frendly units. Either way, you have to fiddle the rules a bit.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 29, 2018 1:10:15 GMT
interesting stuff. The Iron Daemon movement phase is certainly an example for unnecessary complexity.
I am a bit surprised by the high regard for the steam cannonade as opposed to skullcracker. The latter seems so much better to me. I guess it really depends who you are up against.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 29, 2018 6:35:43 GMT
interesting stuff. The Iron Daemon movement phase is certainly an example for unnecessary complexity. I am a bit surprised by the high regard for the steam cannonade as opposed to skullcracker. The latter seems so much better to me. I guess it really depends who you are up against. I think the problem is in the points, at that amount you might take a destroyer (rare) that does the same thing as a skull cracker but even better.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 29, 2018 7:22:37 GMT
knoffles here is the wording if you want to add it  The Iron Daemon is a mighty, smoke-belching powerhouse; slow but incredibly hard to stop. It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so. Alternately, it may choose to engage its steam boiler’s power and move faster, but this is hardly a precise art. In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled then add this number to the Iron Daemon’s movement score for the total distance travelled. The Iron Daemon moves this distance forward in a straight line and may not turn or wield as it does so. If a double 1 is rolled, then something has gone wrong and the Iron Daemon does not move at all this turn. If a charge is being attempted, this must be declared as normal before the extra movement amount is rolled, and if failed (ie, the distance rolled for movement is insufficient to reach the target unit), simply move the Iron Daemon forward the rolled distance instead. If the total movement would bring the Iron Daemon into contact with a unit unintentionally (ie, not as the result of a declared charge), roll for impact hits as normal. The Iron Daemon does not count as charging if the unit is an enemy, and its enemy gains the Always Strikes First rule against it for the first turn of combat owing to the confusion on board. If by some error it strikes a friendly unit, resolve the impact hits and then move the Iron Daemon back 1" after the collision. In each round of an on-going combat after the first, the Iron Daemon may make a Thunderstomp attack exactly like a monster to reflect it grinding over its victims with its bulk and power. Iron Daemons cannot overrun or pursue in combat if they destroy or rout their foes.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 29, 2018 10:09:00 GMT
In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled then add this number to the Iron Daemon’s movement score for the total distance travelled.
They are using the word score here and characteristic or movement value in other places which for me implies its the score - multiple values - (2D6 or actually swift strides best two of 3D6?) is added and the broilers for extra speed?
This is worse then Skaven book...
And regarding unintentionally. Have they not defined it in the text - (ie, not as the result of a declared charge).
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