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Post by DiscoQing on Oct 15, 2018 16:35:17 GMT
I played 2 games of 8th yesterday using my ogres (for the first time!).
I played vs. A monster heavy Daemon army, and I managed to cannon off 2 greater daemons and shoot off a 3rd with Leadbelchers (lucky shooting!) throughout the 2 games...
It made my friend and I question the strength of cannons, so I wondered whether anyone here imposed a comp on themselves when using them, like max.1
or even adjusting the rules, Multi wound D6 changed to D3, for example...
... Or was my mate just whinging!? He certainly didn't care about the cannons pre-aos dropping. But maybe that's because I didn't have ogres back then!
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Oct 15, 2018 16:45:11 GMT
I play Empire and I’ve heard all of the cannon complaints. My response is that as often as my cannon has done anything t kissy as easily blows up. In order for cannons to do their job I feel like I need 2 and an engineer. At that point I’m a shade over 300 points for something that can be smashed by a small skirmishing unit. In a game where both cannons survive and hit accurately, my opponent is probably a salty individual...but those games are rare.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 15, 2018 17:38:53 GMT
To be fair if he bought 3 greater daemons to the party then deserved to get multiple cannons to the face 😀. It does sound like you were quite lucky to not misfire. I do find it tends to average out over games. Ogre cannons are particularly nasty due to their movement, though saying that, Daemons have one of the most nasty cannons available too.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Oct 15, 2018 17:57:55 GMT
As a rare aren’t daemon players limited to 2 cannons in an army (smaller than grand armies). I feel like it isn’t impossible to work around 2 of those things. They do appear under costed though.
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Oct 15, 2018 18:06:53 GMT
Yes, they can only have 2, but those 2 are Daemonic(so Ward and Magical), Flaming, move and fire, Killing Blow in melee, 3+ save Chariot cannons.
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Oct 15, 2018 18:51:14 GMT
I have done sometimes D3 wounds as opposed to D6. I think it's a sensible house rule, but have also played a lot straight 8th edition with D6 wounds. I think the D3 wounds works for people that bring overall balance armies and don't bring a lot of cheese. If someone - and I mean no offense here - brings 3+ monsters, then use D6, because it's going to be an auto win for him otherwise.
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Post by strutsagget on Oct 15, 2018 20:23:21 GMT
I have that discussion with myself all the time Cannons are nuts; I hate them when playing woodies or woc. They always one shoot the model I just spent a month painting first round of combat. Often even before I am allowed to move it... Would I bring them with my empire or chaos dwarf army? Hell YES! I would also recommend you both talk about how to make the game less swingy. For example, if your opponent just bring one monster and you only one cannon, then you can both invest in more RnF slaughter fest
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 15, 2018 21:15:46 GMT
Where is the rules question, though?
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Oct 15, 2018 21:21:57 GMT
I play Empire and I’ve heard all of the cannon complaints. My response is that as often as my cannon has done anything t kissy as easily blows up. In order for cannons to do their job I feel like I need 2 and an engineer. At that point I’m a shade over 300 points for something that can be smashed by a small skirmishing unit. In a game where both cannons survive and hit accurately, my opponent is probably a salty individual...but those games are rare. We had a [separate] text thread that got to about 130 comments RE: cannons. Oh my goodness, the hatred we had. My opinion? --Q). Are they cheesy? Are they broken, too good? How can we fix them?
--A). No. No. Don't need to. Cannons are powerful and exist to balance the metagame. ROCK PAPER SCISSORS. This means: the existence of a dwarf or Empire army packing 2 or 3 (or 4, or 5) S10 multi wound ranged weapons is important to dissuade other armies from taking all monsters. i.e. a Chaos Army with a Demon Prince, 4 Core Chariots, 2 Chimeras, and a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth. Or something similar, etc etc. Examples. None are "Always True"... meant to be generalities. Let's call a really nice, fair, balanced Elf Army PAPER. Some spearmen, some archers, a bolt thrower, some elite cavalry. The aforementioned Chaos Army with Demon Prince, 4 Core Chariots, 2 Chimeras, and a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth is SCISSORS. Snippy snip! In most cases, SCISSORS beats PAPER. The impact hits, thunderstomps, and more will carry the day for Chaos. Statistically. Enter an Empire army with 2 Cannons and 2 Steam Tanks. It is quite likely that if the Empire draws the first turn, many of the elements of that same Chaos Army will be off the table before they get to move. A proverbially poof of dust. Unless the poor Empire player TheREALricksalamone rolls a few 1's. Which does happen! You know, Statistically. It isn't "Fun" to be the Chaos player here. No sir, not at all. Frick -- dannytee will testify that I had a Demon Prince shot to dust by a Skaven Cannon not but a week ago. The Empire is playing the part of ROCK. They beat SCISSORS, in this case Chaos. They're using a tool in their arsenal that's "really good" against some stuff and "pretty OK" against other stuff. That said, once could argue a cannon heavy list will not be nearly as effective against 20mm x 20mm Elf Infantry and such. S10 is the same as S5 in that case, really. Pretty darn similar (not always, just humor me). Killing 3 Swordmasters from a unit of 30 isn't nearly as good as a 350 point DP. My retort for cannon haters: field an army that isn't susceptible to cannons. i.e. don't bring 3 gigantic 4W monsters with no ward save. Or, over saturate with so many that they could never possible cannon them all. They'll run out of gunpowder first, LOL. It's all an important part of checks & balances IMHO, especially for competitive and tournament play. All that said, I ain't even a competitive player, I like the fun and I enjoy the narrative.
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Post by Horace on Oct 15, 2018 22:20:59 GMT
Scenery and careful placement of valuable units. Problem solved
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Post by strutsagget on Oct 16, 2018 6:10:21 GMT
Scenery and careful placement of valuable units. Problem solved But the large target like the greater daemons is pretty hard to hide.
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Post by Horace on Oct 16, 2018 8:01:47 GMT
Really, you have no scenery which you can get it behind? I'm sure this has been discussed in previous threads but even walls stop the bounce of cannonballs, or other multiwound models/units with ward saves are also effective
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Post by DiscoQing on Oct 16, 2018 11:05:39 GMT
We have ruled that hills and buildings block line of sight, it makes things a bit easier than saying, "I can see the models finger tip". Lol.
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Post by airjamy on Oct 16, 2018 11:55:03 GMT
Cannons are really strong, especially if you are a new player, as new players often underestimate the damage they can put out and do not know how to play around them. I however, do not hink they should be comped, there are plenty of ways to counteract them, mainly by playing warmachine hunters. There are also many really detailed tactica's on them, i especially like this one on the old Lizardmen forum: www.lustria-online.com/threads/compilation-of-ways-to-fight-cannons-updated-with-responses.13048/
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 16, 2018 21:04:30 GMT
We have ruled that hills and buildings block line of sight, it makes things a bit easier than saying, "I can see the models finger tip". Lol. Ah, but cannon only need LoS to the chosen target point, not to the enemy they actually want to hit.
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