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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 21, 2020 6:59:44 GMT
I’ve had lots of units wiped out by cannons. It doesn’t make sense to me that a thing that shoots in a straight line should be able to wipe out ranks and ranks of a unit. For example: the bolt thrower is understood to fire through one line of a unit. Hitting each consecutive model. Would it make more sense if a common was hitting perhaps two models and then following through. The max it could kill in a unit of 10 in a 5x2 formation would be 4. Not 8 or 9. It doesn’t make sense. It does not make sense, because it does not work that way. Only one model per rank (or file in case of a flank shot) struck can be hit. So, the maximum a cannon can hit in a 5x2 unit would be 2 in front, or 5 in the case of a flank shot. Furthermore, the cannonball is stopped by obstacles, and by a Monster or Monstrous Infantry/Beast/Cavalry, if it does not kill the model.
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Post by Horace on May 21, 2020 10:31:16 GMT
I always think of the (rather mediocre) Mel Gibson film, the Patriot. There’s one battle scene in that where cannons tear through a unit with limbs flying everywhere. The power of gun powder combined with the metal ball would make a cannon far more powerful than a bolt thrower and it would generally tear through a unit (I’ll fully admit that using a film as any kind of accuracy of physics is dubious at best 😂) I don’t mind the D6 damage and think it’s the correct damage to use. I use cannons a lot with dwarfs and although the internet seems to think they always roll a 6 for damage, it always feels like I roll a 1 to wound (so fail), or a 1 for the wounds caused...). That aside my beef with them is that it’s the accuracy of the cannon that is questionable. I prefer always scattering the initial target point. It’s simple and makes them far less ‘snipery’ I tend to agree regarding the accuracy thing. My problem with it is less from a gaming perspective and more from a fluffy one. If I designed the rules, I would perhaps have required the crew to roll to hit the point using their BS, a fail would see it scatter, then continue on as normal. I would then maybe have it only hit the rider or monster rather than both. You have to be very careful with such changes though as a cannon is there to remove high value/strength/toughness single pieces after all, and is part of balancing the game in a way that these do not run rampant.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 21, 2020 11:56:45 GMT
The problem rather seems to be selective memory. People on the receiving end do remember the few times a cannon took out a precious model of theirs with one shot; they do forget the vast majority of cases, where the cannon did no to very limited damage, or even blew up itself on turn 1 (those are the instances Empire players tend to remember). The only change I would advocate is a return to a previous rule, i.e. randomisation between rider and mount on a ridden monster.
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Post by strutsagget on May 21, 2020 14:13:48 GMT
The problem rather seems to be selective memory. People on the receiving end do remember the few times a cannon took out a precious model of theirs with one shot; they do forget the vast majority of cases, where the cannon did no to very limited damage, or even blew up itself on turn 1 (those are the instances Empire players tend to remember). The only change I would advocate is a return to a previous rule, i.e. randomisation between rider and mount on a ridden monster. Or the opposite, you seem to only remember the 1/6 miss fire? 🤠 Of the 100s of games played I can remember very few games where cannons did not earn back their points. I am trying to think of if I have any unit in the same magnitude as cannons(in positive points earned). But to be fair the empire books seems to need them to be playable. That indicates that there might be some problems with balance in it. I have more problems with the ones on chariots though. Balance a full 18 races game is very though though. And balance is not everything. Fun games can be played either way.
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Post by vulcan on May 21, 2020 15:49:28 GMT
I’ve had lots of units wiped out by cannons. It doesn’t make sense to me that a thing that shoots in a straight line should be able to wipe out ranks and ranks of a unit. For example: the bolt thrower is understood to fire through one line of a unit. Hitting each consecutive model. Would it make more sense if a common was hitting perhaps two models and then following through. The max it could kill in a unit of 10 in a 5x2 formation would be 4. Not 8 or 9. It doesn’t make sense. Ah... how is a cannon hitting 8 or 9 models without a flank shot? It should only hit two models most of the time, three rarely, and four hardly ever. If a one-wound infantry model takes six wounds from a multiwound weapon, it's just killed. The wounds don't roll over to the unit.
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Tubis
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Post by Tubis on May 21, 2020 15:51:12 GMT
Even though the Empire is one of the armies I play, I pretty much depsise cannons in their current form. To the point where for a time I refused to take them at all and instead used mortars for monster hunting duties (yes, I know how ineffective that is, but it felt more fair to my opponents).
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g2000
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Post by g2000 on May 21, 2020 16:08:09 GMT
I’ve had lots of units wiped out by cannons. It doesn’t make sense to me that a thing that shoots in a straight line should be able to wipe out ranks and ranks of a unit. For example: the bolt thrower is understood to fire through one line of a unit. Hitting each consecutive model. Would it make more sense if a common was hitting perhaps two models and then following through. The max it could kill in a unit of 10 in a 5x2 formation would be 4. Not 8 or 9. It doesn’t make sense. Ah... how is a cannon hitting 8 or 9 models without a flank shot? It should only hit two models most of the time, three rarely, and four hardly ever. If a one-wound infantry model takes six wounds from a multiwound weapon, it's just killed. The wounds don't roll over to the unit. Well they seemed to roll over to the unit where I’m playing. I don’t play an army that has cannons. So they aren’t rules that I’ve scrutinized. Everyone I play with cannons always starts with ‘10 inches from the back’. When I did read the rules in big red this didn’t really make sense with how cannons are supposed to work. I’ll go over the rules again. But dwarf organ guns and skaven rattling guns?!! They’re getting off close to 30 shots at a time.
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g2000
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Post by g2000 on May 21, 2020 16:12:55 GMT
The problem rather seems to be selective memory. People on the receiving end do remember the few times a cannon took out a precious model of theirs with one shot; they do forget the vast majority of cases, where the cannon did no to very limited damage, or even blew up itself on turn 1 (those are the instances Empire players tend to remember). The only change I would advocate is a return to a previous rule, i.e. randomisation between rider and mount on a ridden monster. Oh, I remember when they misfire. It’s brilliant;) And when they blow up!!!
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Post by vulcan on May 21, 2020 16:47:00 GMT
Ah... how is a cannon hitting 8 or 9 models without a flank shot? It should only hit two models most of the time, three rarely, and four hardly ever. If a one-wound infantry model takes six wounds from a multiwound weapon, it's just killed. The wounds don't roll over to the unit. Well they seemed to roll over to the unit where I’m playing. I don’t play an army that has cannons. So they aren’t rules that I’ve scrutinized. Everyone I play with cannons always starts with ‘10 inches from the back’. When I did read the rules in big red this didn’t really make sense with how cannons are supposed to work. I’ll go over the rules again. But dwarf organ guns and skaven rattling guns?!! They’re getting off close to 30 shots at a time. True, but they're not cannon.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 21, 2020 16:57:03 GMT
It seems you have been had by the other players. As vulcan indicates, a "model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile. Should the model do so, it dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted" (BRB p. 45). The 10" from the back to designate the target ( i.e. the start of the bounce) is not part of the rules; it is just that statistically, it gives you the best chance of hitting what you want to hit. The probability that a cannonball will hit a point x inches beyond the nominated target has been calculated thus: Misfire: 6/36 = 16.67% 2: 6/36 = 16.67% 4: 11/36 = 30.56% 6: 15/36 = 41.67% 8: 18/36 = 50.00% 10: 20/36 = 55.56% 12: 15/36 = 41.67% 14: 10/36 = 27.78% 16: 6/36 = 16.67% 18: 3/36 = 8.33% 20: 1/36 = 2.78%
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Post by vulcan on May 21, 2020 17:33:19 GMT
So the easy counter for cannons is to block LOS to that point. Preferably by parking a unit just in front of it. Ideally something that can stop a cannonball on the bounce like MI or MC.
I never said it was a cheap counter, just an easy one.
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Post by strutsagget on May 21, 2020 18:21:49 GMT
But still if your 1 rank cavalry flees it can end up with its flank and be wiped out. Against chariot cannons they easy find flanks of your cavalry and wipe them out. Also wiping out a full column of a 4-5 unit is not bad either if you don’t have any other options, but of course organ gun(equivalent) is even batter at this.
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Tubis
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Post by Tubis on May 21, 2020 19:45:34 GMT
Linear obstacles are also pretty good to hide behind. Remember that whan a cannonball hits a wall or a fence it stops immediately (and destroys said obstacle).
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Post by strutsagget on May 21, 2020 20:39:01 GMT
Linear obstacles are also pretty good to hide behind. Remember that whan a cannonball hits a wall or a fence it stops immediately (and destroys said obstacle). But you always over shoot, so cannons aim in front of the obstacle ground and then land 2” up to 10” behind and then roll for an other 10”. Same goes for houses... you can aim on the ground before(or the roof top) the house and then cannonball lands behind the house and makes a line template from there. But yes it takes away some small percentage. Very gamy mechanic and pretty fraud upon. Also known as quantum mechanics or cannon curveballs...
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Tubis
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Post by Tubis on May 21, 2020 21:43:09 GMT
Linear obstacles are also pretty good to hide behind. Remember that whan a cannonball hits a wall or a fence it stops immediately (and destroys said obstacle). But you always over shoot, so cannons aim in front of the obstacle ground and then land 2” up to 10” behind and then roll for an other 10”. Same goes for houses... you can aim on the ground before(or the roof top) the house and then cannonball lands behind the house and makes a line template from there. But yes it takes away some small percentage. Very gamy mechanic and pretty fraud upon. Also known as quantum mechanics or cannon curveballs... yeah...you're right. you just need to aim like a fraction of an inch in front of it lol. Dunno what I was thinking, scratch that brilliant idea.
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