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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 15:29:25 GMT
But if someone said to me that their destroyed magic item cannot provide any benefits anymore, I'd agree with them. So, is your third position now that, once Arcane Unforging has destroyed the magic (battle) standard, there is no {battle} standard anymore to give any benefits (including CR & re-rolls of failed Ld tests)?
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 15, 2018 15:30:34 GMT
That was never my position.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 15:35:36 GMT
What is your position then? Because your posts seem very contradictory. And if you have clarified your position, is there anything in the actual rules to support that position?
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 15, 2018 19:07:59 GMT
I can't see how my comments are contradictory... I'm saying the same thing XD
Unforging destroys the Banner (item) but the Bearer (now with just a pole/totem, but still has the rules) remains.
It's really not that hard.
Rules cited would be... Standard Bearer/BSB rules. Unforging spell description.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 21:53:02 GMT
I can't see how my comments are contradictory... I'm saying the same thing XD Except you are not, as already demonstrated before by quoting your previous positions. Unforging destroys the Banner (item) but the Bearer (now with just a pole/totem, but still has the rules) remains. It's really not that hard. Rules cited would be... Standard Bearer/BSB rules. Unforging spell description. And again, as demonstrated before, there is nothing in the rules to support that. That is why I have been quoting the rules (as I generally do, both pro and contra), while you have not. The BRB specifically ties the ability to the (battle) standard, not to the (battle) standard bearer, with the single exception (quoted by myself), which, however, can be best explained by the fact that the BRB works on the premise of standard bearers actually bearing standards.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 15, 2018 22:06:44 GMT
What was your rule outcome to the original question again?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 22:12:53 GMT
Since I have been consistent in my position, it should not be too difficult for you to find the answer. But i am always willing to change my position, if someone brings up by a counter-argument based on the actual rules. More often than not, that someone turns out to be me.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 15, 2018 22:22:47 GMT
So what was your answer again?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 23:01:12 GMT
Since you apparently cannot or will not read previous posts, here it is: What sedge said. However, I have seen it argued that, since Arcane Unforging destroys the magic banner of a standard bearer/BSB, there is no banner left to pick up/benefit from . This can be countered as follows: RAW, there is nothing that says that the Magic Standard replaces the mundane standard, just like a magic weapon does not replace a mundane weapon - it just prohibits you from using it, but there is no such or other limitation for standards. Only in the case of magic armour, the BRB p. 502 specifically states: "A model can only have one suit of armour and one shield, so if you give a model a magical suit of armour or a magical shield, it replaces any mundane equivalent already worn by the model." This is reflected by BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.11: - Q – If a Battle Standard Bearer has to be placed in the second rank of a unit due to there being no space for them in the unit’s first rank, do the effects of the battle standard still apply? (p107)
A – Yes
- Q – If a Battle Standard Bearer who has a magic standard has to be placed in the second rank of a unit due to there being no space for them in the unit’s front rank, do the effects of the magic standard still apply? (p107)
A – Yes.
So, buying the standard bearer/BSB upgrade gives you automatically a mundane standard, but buying the extra upgrade of a magic standard will not replace the mundane standard. Arcane Unforging will destroy the Magic Standard, but not the mundane one.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 15, 2018 23:11:42 GMT
Glad we came to the same conclusion using common sense.
So we agree, awesome.
Night night.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 15, 2018 23:22:37 GMT
To refer to another previous post of me in response to strutsagget: No. Any magic standard is bought in addition to the mundane standard, just like any other magic item is bought in addition to the mundane equipment, with the exception of magic armour, where it is specifically stated that it replaces any mundane armour. Therefore, if the magic standard is destroyed by Arcane Unforging, the mundane standard is not affected. DiscoQing argues that the magic standard replaces the mundane standard (which is not stated in the BRB or any AB), but, if the standard is destroyed, the bearer (or the pole) retains the ability of the standard, which, again, is not stated as such in the BRB (or ABs}. Indeed, the BRB links the ability to the standard (with the one quoted exception, but that is simply because in normal cicrcumstances the bearer will have a standard). So, his argument would not settle the question. There is no disagreement about the end result, but about the argument supporting it. Since no FAQ will be forthcoming that would settle the question, it is best to go for the most convincing argument, i.e. the one supported by RAW. But clearly, you are trying to pull a nightbringer on me. So, unless you have an actual argument, I will leave it at this.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 16, 2018 0:16:40 GMT
We literally came to the same conclusion about a week ago - not sure why there was so much back/forth - lol.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 16, 2018 10:27:22 GMT
Maths question: calculate 32.
A says: 3x3=9
B says: 3+3=9
A: But 3+3=6.
B: That is not my position.
B has the right answer, but still fails his maths exam.
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 16, 2018 11:18:14 GMT
So the conclusion is that all battle standard bearers have the mundane standard tucked away to bring forth if they lose the magical one?
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 16, 2018 11:42:58 GMT
So the conclusion is that all battle standard bearers have the mundane standard tucked away to bring forth if they lose the magical one? Yeah, I guess. Thematically you can imagine it anyway you like I guess; Tearing some cloth from something else and using that, or simply using the pole itself (which I think FvonSigmaringen is confused by XD)
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