|
Post by pandabro on Feb 14, 2019 23:09:32 GMT
I've always favored the dwarfs above every other army, and while I thought the 8th ed book was a step in the right direction, I also found it to be lacking and/or downright strange in others. Thus I've tinkered with some homerules for a while now and figured I would add them here. I have PLENTY of thoughts about what to change, but I'll only write down what has been cooking for long enough, so to speak. So let's get to it.
Ancestral Grudge: Keep the O&G + Skaven Hatred, but remove the roll. How many points would you pay to give your entire army hatred? It's ridiculous to have that come down to ONE dice roll. I suggest instead that every character gains Hatred, while Thanes and Lords confers Hatred to their unit.
Lore-wise it makes sense enough. It is called ancestral grudge. Thanes and lords are the heads or "patriarchs" of the clans, and are usually the oldest, wisest and most experienced of dwarfs, and they have seen more battles than anyone. Rules-wise it is way more balanced and takes away randomness and gives to player skill. Now you choose which unit(s) gets hatred. It also nicely mirrors the runesmith/runelord that gives armor piercing to the unit.
Thorgrim Grudgebearer:
Axe of Grimnir: Might be too powerful, but I think it should change from D6 wounds against giants to D3 wounds against monsters. Don't know how much of a point increase that justifies, but the weapon is lacking as of now.
The Great Book of Grudges: Automatically gives entire army Hatred. His unit gains Eternal Hatred.
If he's not gonna deal a lot of damage, he should at least be great support.
Ironbreakers: Like Irondrakes should get a static. 6+ ward save. Ironbreakers are supposed to be equally valuable to Hammerers, just focused on defense. But, the Hammerers just performs better. At the very least, giving Ironbreakers (or gromril in general) a 6+ isn't that crazy, imo. I don't really understand why units with 2+ ward against fire also gets a 6+ ward. It's just a bit strange to me. Or give them a simply +1 to their parry, so that the get a 4+ parry in the first turn. Their point is to be shock absorbtion.
Bolt Thrower: Drop by 5-10 points. It might as well not be an option at this point.
Gyrocopter with Brimstone Gun: I am not sure about this one, but I wanted to hear thoughts. It is useless now, but I see what it tried to be. The steam gun is great at large blocks of units, but is bad against few and units with large bases. If you steam a dragon, you only get one hit. The brimstone can damage tough/armored enemies and get rid of regen. But it has to be 2D3, or 3D3 shots every turn then. D3 hits is abysmal. Then again, will it not be too powerful, to have a cheap flying unit that can reliably get rid of regen and take out single models? I don't know, it's weird. But I like the idea of a Gyrocopter that can actually deal damage to Ogres. But then there's the Gyrobomber. I'm torn.
Blasting Charges: From range 4" to 8", similar to throwing axes.
Ancestral Heirlooms: Get rid of them. I find them unfluffy, and they're mostly terrible. Let's stick to runes.
Runes: I am out of my depth when it comes to coming up with new runes and balancing old ones. But I've toyed a bit with an idea to make Runesmiths/Runelords a bit more interesting, and that is a form of Battle Runes. These will replace the Heirlooms. Imagine something like:
Fiery rune of Thori: Character gets a one usee only flaming breath weapon. Battle rune of vengeance: Grants devastating charge to the unit. Battle rune of wind: Unit can move an addition 6" a turn Etc.
Whether these should be a simple one use, or be a bound spell, I go back and forth on. But I am thinking something like the Battle Priest/Arch Lector dynamic, just downgraded one level. So the runesmith can take a battle rune as a one use, but a Runelord can choose to cast it as a bound spell. Might be too unbalanced. Bottom line is, I don't like the idea of ancestral heirlooms, I guess.
Anvil of Doom: This might be controversial, but I like the Total Warhammer version, where it is essentially a mount like the throne of power, and can be brought into battle atop anvil bearers and can join units. I think it opens up for more list possibilities, and it doesn't encourage turtling. I honestly think that if Thorgrim didn't already have a model, that this would be the case and you would get a Thorgrim/Anvil dual kit.
I suggest it also gets access to all battle runes to be used as innate bound spells, plus it gets access to more classical anvil runes like Hearth and Home. I do miss a movement rune though. Like someone on this board suggested, one could have something like "Rune of Flow & Feather" (bad name, I know), where if targeted at a friendly unit doubles the movement for a turn, and if targeted at an enemy, halfs the movement for a turn.
While writing this, I realized many of my ideas are a bit half-baked, but hopefully that is where you come in. My goal with these runes have been to make every option useful. I also think there should be a bit more emphasis on movement, somehow. Dwarfs aren't famous for moving (nor should they), but just because they don't move far doesn't mean movements shouldn't be important.
I have many more unorganized thoughts, but this is it for now. Hope to get some feedback on what you guys think, I love that this forum is a thing!
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 15, 2019 14:39:03 GMT
I think the Dwarf book is pretty solid tbh.
The main stand-out issues to me are the Axe of Grimnir, it is a bit rubbish as it stands because it does not modify armour. Some form of change with regards to this would make it more useable, or make it D3 wounds so if you do sneak one through it actually does something.
The Book of Grudges Ancestral Hatred roll needs sorting out.
The Anvil of Doom is a real missed opportunity. It needed a few more bound spells. It could also have been used as a mount like in the old days giving a mobile buff.
the other stuff I have never really found issue with. Particularly Ironbreakers, they are hard as nails! They are already WS5 T4 with a 3+ 5++ essentially. I think they are up there with the toughest units in the game. I think they are equally useful to Hammerers, it just depends on your approach. Hammerers get thinned out very quickly but put out horrible amounts of damage. Ironbreakers are your classic anvil.
I think the 8th book gave Dwarfs some much needed mobility. Between Strollaz Rune, Miners, Rangers and Vanguarding Gyrocopters you have the ability to create some surprisingly in-your-face Dwarf lists
|
|
|
Post by pandabro on Feb 16, 2019 3:31:04 GMT
I think the Dwarf book is pretty solid tbh. The main stand-out issues to me are the Axe of Grimnir, it is a bit rubbish as it stands because it does not modify armour. Some form of change with regards to this would make it more useable, or make it D3 wounds so if you do sneak one through it actually does something. The Book of Grudges Ancestral Hatred roll needs sorting out. The Anvil of Doom is a real missed opportunity. It needed a few more bound spells. It could also have been used as a mount like in the old days giving a mobile buff. the other stuff I have never really found issue with. Particularly Ironbreakers, they are hard as nails! They are already WS5 T4 with a 3+ 5++ essentially. I think they are up there with the toughest units in the game. I think they are equally useful to Hammerers, it just depends on your approach. Hammerers get thinned out very quickly but put out horrible amounts of damage. Ironbreakers are your classic anvil. I think the 8th book gave Dwarfs some much needed mobility. Between Strollaz Rune, Miners, Rangers and Vanguarding Gyrocopters you have the ability to create some surprisingly in-your-face Dwarf lists I pretty much agree with all of it. Axe of Grimnir is a bit of a joke, honestly. 650 points for something that can't really deal damage is a bit ridiculous, even if the model grantes army-wide Hatred. I think having a roll at the start of the game, where on a 2+ the entire army gets hatred is dumb. I think giving thanes and lords conferable hatred is an elegant solution to it. The Anvil should obviously compete with Teclis or the like, but it is still a missed opportuniy, yes. It would have been a great opportunity to mix up the dwarf dynamic. As for ironbreakers, they're certainly not bad. I just find it strange that irondrakes gets an actual 6+ ward save, while ironbreakers does not. And giving ironbreakers a 6+ ward makes the oath stone a little less ironbreaker-centric. The 8th book most definitely made movement a lot better for dwarfs. I'm just saying we should be open for ways to improve it even further. 8th gave us plenty vanguard, decent ambushers and an actual redirector that's also the bane for T3 infantry, but no reason to stop there. Anyways, glad to hear from you!
|
|
|
Post by knoffles on Feb 16, 2019 11:30:23 GMT
I actually think that ironbreakers should have the rune of Stone (like they did in earlier editions), this would then give them a 2+ save. That small change would make them really stand out as an anvil unit.
As for the anvil, just being able to embed it in units would make it infinitely more usable.
Oh and yep I find the brimstone gun completely rubbish. There is just no circumstance where taking it is better and I know we’ve discussed it here a few times trying to theorise when to take it.
I don’t mind the ancestral grudge. A bit random perhaps but our troops are already solid and giving them guaranteed hatred might be too much.
The bolt thrower is definitely too expensive. There is no reason to take it over the cannon as it is.
I don’t mind the ancestral heirlooms, some are a bit different. They should of confirmed that the banner of lost holds could go on the slayers.
Blasting charges would be fine but all thrown weapons (such as these and axes etc) should have been ruled to not have long range (as per the previous edition).
Anyway that’s my two cents. Overall though I really like the book
|
|
|
Post by pandabro on Feb 16, 2019 15:14:59 GMT
I actually think that ironbreakers should have the rune of Stone (like they did in earlier editions), this would then give them a 2+ save. That small change would make them really stand out as an anvil unit. As for the anvil, just being able to embed it in units would make it infinitely more usable. Oh and yep I find the brimstone gun completely rubbish. There is just no circumstance where taking it is better and I know we’ve discussed it here a few times trying to theorise when to take it. I don’t mind the ancestral grudge. A bit random perhaps but our troops are already solid and giving them guaranteed hatred might be too much. The bolt thrower is definitely too expensive. There is no reason to take it over the cannon as it is. I don’t mind the ancestral heirlooms, some are a bit different. They should of confirmed that the banner of lost holds could go on the slayers. Blasting charges would be fine but all thrown weapons (such as these and axes etc) should have been ruled to not have long range (as per the previous edition). Anyway that’s my two cents. Overall though I really like the book I mostly like the book too. I wouldn't propose an overhaul to it, just working out the kinks. My quick response to your points: David Witek from Garagehammer suggested that gromril shields give +2 instead of +1. It will essentially be the same thing as a rune of stone, just better fluff-wise. Gone are the days where every dwarf has access to runic gear. Myself amongst others have also thought of having Light, heavy, plate and gromril armor. So gromril is 3+, plate is 4+, heavy is 5+ etc. Another way is to bring back light armor, but make it an armywide rule that all dwarf armor gets a +1 to armor save in another "dwarven crafted" rule. I'm no expert at balancing though, but dwarfs have a fairly low static armor save, actually, without access to a 1+ or 2+ armored unit. Yeah, brimstone sucks. I like the idea of being able to field a gunpowderless army, and I think it should be viable. Miners and rangers for chaff, with cheap bolt throwers and grudge throwers for artillery. But the bolt thrower needs a major drop to make it viable. Part of me also wants to bring back the engineer, but again it might be a balancing problem. My problem with ancestral heirlooms is mainly fluff-based. We have runes because dwarfs are master craftsmen, unlike other races, and we can always make new stuff. Ancestral heirlooms are just superfluous in addition to being mostly bad, apart from the horn and ring. But I'd rather they get incorporated into runes instead. Totally agree about thrown weapons. I thought about putting it in, but didn't simply because it is an 8th problem and not just a dwarf problem.
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Feb 17, 2019 18:15:31 GMT
I actually like the humble bolt thrower and think it's well balanced. I would generally try to field at least one in my lists. It's not expensive and would generally make it's points back in addition to making it harder to get at my cannon/grudge thrower. The issue with them however in comparison to cannons (which should be a bit more expensive, hence all the grumbles) or the 'better' war machines is that runes are pretty much a waste of time on them as they cost the same as they would on a more powerful war machine where they benefit more. With an engineer a Bolt Thrower has 4 wounds. Given the price of the flimsy 2 wound elven options and the unreliable goblin version I don't see a points drop as being suitable for the Dwarf Bolt Thrower. At it's current price it would be used in other armies if they had it available such as Warriors of Chaos, Tomb Kings, Beastmen and OnG... especially with its standard Ld 9. Dwarfs have arguably the best artillery in the game so the Bolt Thrower doesn't stand out but it is by no means a bad unit. Anecdotally I've killed enough solo characters (scar vets and Daemon Princes come to mind) and high priced/armored units with my bolt throwers over the years that I actually rate them. Remember they are 100% reliable so you can fire them with impunity. Add in the option of a Master Engineering 2+ to hit within 24 and I think they are under appreciated. I have blown up every single War Machine the dwarfs have to field multiple times and it sucks. The only time I've ever blown up a bolt Thrower was deliberately with the Immolation rune! So I'll agree to disagree on the bolt Thrower. The way it interacts with runes could arguably be changed but I'm fine with the unit overall. With regards to Thorgrim it's a shame he lost so much power compared to the 7th edition book where he was a 780 point monster!! His axe definitely needs a boost. I quite like the TC's ideas as likewise I find the hatred randomness a bit jarring. If he had just a smidge of his 7th edition killing power he would be better. Ah the anvil. I greatly miss my magic phase charge from the 7th edition book haha I knew that would be gone once the 8th book hit but yeah the anvil is so expensive and the runes are hard to use although I do like the armor boost. Out of the rulebook I just couldn't use them at the points and make them worthwhile. My current thrip with them is that the runes don't take into account wizard levels for the dispelling of them and they give 3 dispell dice channel attempts. Haven't playtested them much with those rules though, only twice. I even have both Anvil models, the oop one on wheels and Thorek with Kraggi. I like the thought of 8 inch range for blasting charges. It means that they can be used for more than basically a stand and shoot reaction. It's really hard at present to have the miners be able to appear and shoot something. I love the idea of the Heirlooms and am glad they are included but a couple almost rival the Beastmen Primeval club for overpriced uselessness. I am fine with Ironbreakers. The only reason Iron drakes got the ward save was that GW wanted to push the new models. I'd rather that went to be honest as it doesn't make sense to me lore wise. I guess I'm just happy Ironbreakers were improved from 7th where they were crap. Agree 100% on the Brimstone gun. It's a shame as it has such a cool name.
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Feb 17, 2019 18:23:01 GMT
Ok, it's been a long time since I've played dwarfs. I'm getting my books mixed up as I used the 7th book for a lot of 8th edition fantasy until the new one came out and I got my bolt throwers mixed up. 45 point bolt throwers were the bomb!! I take it back. Just checked and in 8th they cost more compared to my memory. Whoops. Bolt Thrower nostalgia kicking in I'm turning into a long beard!
|
|
|
Post by pandabro on Feb 17, 2019 22:26:22 GMT
Ok, it's been a long time since I've played dwarfs. I'm getting my books mixed up as I used the 7th book for a lot of 8th edition fantasy until the new one came out and I got my bolt throwers mixed up. 45 point bolt throwers were the bomb!! I take it back. Just checked and in 8th they cost more compared to my memory. Whoops. Bolt Thrower nostalgia kicking in I'm turning into a long beard! No problem. I remember the old one, too. 10 points cheaper and in 6th two bolt throwers would would count as one special choice!
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 18, 2019 13:01:38 GMT
Ah the anvil. I greatly miss my magic phase charge from the 7th edition book haha I knew that would be gone once the 8th book hit but yeah the anvil is so expensive and the runes are hard to use although I do like the armor boost. Out of the rulebook I just couldn't use them at the points and make them worthwhile. My current thrip with them is that the runes don't take into account wizard levels for the dispelling of them and they give 3 dispell dice channel attempts. Haven't playtested them much with those rules though, only twice. I even have both Anvil models, the oop one on wheels and Thorek with Kraggi. The Anvil isn't terrible, it is just really quite boring. I think it works quite well with an unkillable Runelord on it, it is a nice area denial piece. The problem is it effectively only does 2 things since the ItP spell is so completely pointless. You throw 6 dice at the Armour or Direct Damage spell. If you don't miscast you try to cast the second one too. That's it. There are no tricky decisions to make regarding which runes to strike and the effects are even quite dull too. I would like to have seen a movement type spell. Perhaps one which targets enemy wizards or magic channellers. There are loads of possibilities
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Feb 18, 2019 16:54:50 GMT
Ah the anvil. I greatly miss my magic phase charge from the 7th edition book haha I knew that would be gone once the 8th book hit but yeah the anvil is so expensive and the runes are hard to use although I do like the armor boost. Out of the rulebook I just couldn't use them at the points and make them worthwhile. My current thrip with them is that the runes don't take into account wizard levels for the dispelling of them and they give 3 dispell dice channel attempts. Haven't playtested them much with those rules though, only twice. I even have both Anvil models, the oop one on wheels and Thorek with Kraggi. The Anvil isn't terrible, it is just really quite boring. I think it works quite well with an unkillable Runelord on it, it is a nice area denial piece. The problem is it effectively only does 2 things since the ItP spell is so completely pointless. You throw 6 dice at the Armour or Direct Damage spell. If you don't miscast you try to cast the second one too. That's it. There are no tricky decisions to make regarding which runes to strike and the effects are even quite dull too. I would like to have seen a movement type spell. Perhaps one which targets enemy wizards or magic channellers. There are loads of possibilities Yeah it would have been great if it had 6 runes which could have been potentially struck to make it almost like the magic lores. That would have made it more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by mindrobber on Jun 5, 2020 22:26:37 GMT
Ive recently gone back to my Dwarf army after a break and modified a few of the units, Anvil of Doom being one of them - These are the rules we used in the last couple of games;
Change Strike the Runes special rule A model mounted on an Anvil of Doom can use the following bound spells a number of times per friendly Magic phase as long as it has not moved (except to pivot). • Rune of Hearth and Home. x3. (Power Level 3). Augment. Range 18" Target gains Stubborn. If already Stubborn target gains Unbreakable. • Rune of Oath and Steel. x2. (Power Level 4). Augment. Range: Battlefield. Target increases their Armour Save by 1. • Rune of Oath and Honour. x2. (Power Level 4). Augment. Range: Battlefield. Target immediately makes an additional Move as if were the Remaining Moves sub-phase. • Rune of Wrath and Ruin. x1. (Power Level 5). Direct Damage. Range 24". 2d6 Strength 4 hits.
Add Rhythm of the Forge special rule • The Anvil of Doom has its own special rule to generate extra Power dice.
• When a Rune lord consecutively strikes a Rune (the power dice must equal or succeed it's power level, even if dispelled) it receives a Strike token. The Rune must be a different Rune to the previous one the RuneLord striked this turn. • Before attempting to cast a Rune you may declare a Mighty Strike. Roll a d6, You must roll higher than the current number of Strike token the Runelord has obtained, if successful remove all tokens and receive a +1 bonus to the Casting roll per Strike token discarded.
• If the model fails to Strike a Rune all Strike token are lost though the model may continue to strike further Runes this turn.
• Strike token may be kept to be used in later magic phases. If the Anvil of Doom is hit by an enemy spell, ranged attack or engaged in close combat, all Strike token are discarded.
Add Mis-Strike special rule • A result of double 1 on the casting attempt means the Runelord has struck the Rune badly, the Rune is not cast and cannot be attempted to be struck again this turn. In addition roll the number of dice that was used to strike the rune, you must roll equal or lower then the casting number with all the dice or the rune is broken. A broken rune cannot be used again for the rest of the game.
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 18, 2020 6:35:28 GMT
Ive recently gone back to my Dwarf army after a break and modified a few of the units, Anvil of Doom being one of them - These are the rules we used in the last couple of games; Change Strike the Runes special rule A model mounted on an Anvil of Doom can use the following bound spells a number of times per friendly Magic phase as long as it has not moved (except to pivot). • Rune of Hearth and Home. x3. (Power Level 3). Augment. Range 18" Target gains Stubborn. If already Stubborn target gains Unbreakable. • Rune of Oath and Steel. x2. (Power Level 4). Augment. Range: Battlefield. Target increases their Armour Save by 1. • Rune of Oath and Honour. x2. (Power Level 4). Augment. Range: Battlefield. Target immediately makes an additional Move as if were the Remaining Moves sub-phase. If the target is Shaken instead of moving it removes its Shaken counter. • Rune of Wrath and Ruin. x1. (Power Level 5). Direct Damage. Range 24". 2d6 Strength 4 hits. Add Rhythm of the Forge special rule • The Anvil of Doom do not gain a Power dice like other bound items (house rule), instead the Anvil has its own special rule to generate extra Power dice. • When a Rune lord consecutively strikes a Rune (power dice must equal or succeed it's power level, even if dispelled) it receives a Strike counter. The Rune must be a different Rune to the previous one the RuneLord striked this turn. • Before attempting to cast a Rune can declare a Mighty Strike. You must roll higher than the current number of Strike counters the Runelord has obtained, if successful remove all counters and receive a +1 bonus per counter to the Power roll. • If the model fails to Strike a Rune all Strike counters are lost though the model may continue to strike further Runes this turn. • Strike counters may be kept to be used in later magic phases. If the Anvil of Doom is hit by an enemy spell, ranged attack or engaged in close combat, all Strike counters are discarded. Add Mis-Strike special rule • A result of double 1 on the casting attempt means the Runelord has struck the Rune badly, the Rune is not cast and cannot be attempted to be struck again this turn. In addition roll the number of dice that was used to strike the rune, you must roll equal or above the casting number with all the dice or the rune is broken. A broken rune cannot be used again for the rest of the game. Sweet man. I haven't played my dwarfs in ages but will look to give your anvil tweaks a try at some stage in the future.
|
|
|
Post by mindrobber on Jun 23, 2020 22:05:46 GMT
Sweet man. I haven't played my dwarfs in ages but will look to give your anvil tweaks a try at some stage in the future. Fixed a few errors and removed the bits that referenced my other house rules. Let me know how it goes
|
|
Yvain
Full Member
Posts: 112
|
Post by Yvain on Jul 7, 2020 10:54:42 GMT
Did you do anything to the runelord as well?
|
|
|
Post by oldmandan on Aug 5, 2020 17:07:07 GMT
I agree that the anvil should have had more bound spells and played a more pivotal role in the magic phase, something like rune of suppression which could quell hostile magic. If you read the stuff about the war of vengeance it talks about how the anvils of doom were used to wreak havoc on one of the elven cities. If my memory serves me well Ironbreakers have never, and I repeat never been rubbish. I saw Ironbreakers in one battle absolutely surrounded by multiple units and they held and broke all those units.
|
|