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Post by strutsagget on Feb 26, 2019 17:25:35 GMT
I have 2 in my build queue. They are huge! Will try those as soon as I have them built and painted  |
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kroak
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by kroak on Feb 26, 2019 21:11:18 GMT
Ok, here is my take on the chaos dwarfs. At least on the units i used in my round about 10 matches. I have sorted the units (roughly) from good to not so good.
-magma cannon: This war machine shoots st 5 templates with a high accuracy and a high range (at least for a flame thrower). I have killed a sphinx with it and burned countles elves to ashes. It is always a priority target for my opponents.
-hell cannon: Another st5 template with st10 and d6 damage in the center. It therefore doubles as a unit and monster killer. Its also an unbreakable monster itself and can easily protect a flank or support your close combat troops. It is slightly less accurate than the magma cannon and if it explodes turn 1 a lot of points are gone😭.
-dark castellan: A hero with a good close combat profile and a 75p magic item allowence. He is very though and has, most importantly, build in stubborn. I always play him as a bsb with a (rerollable) 2+ save. He once kept a whole unit of phoenix guard away from me, who were not able to wound him or break him.
-Sorceror prophet: I played him on giant taurus and on his own and both worked ok. On a taurus i keep him in cover for the first turns and try to support my troops in later close combats. I always used the lore of hashut on him, which has some very strong spells (ash storm) and some not so strong ones. His engineer ability is also strong with the above mentioned war machines but reduces his manouverabiliry if you use it. He is however very expensive, so i had to play him as a lvl 3 often to stay into my lord allowence.
-Deamonsmith: The cheapest possible general for the chaos dwarfes. I used him mostly in low point games were he stayed with my troops in the back, lend his engineer reroll to my warmachines and shoot fireballs onto my enemies.
-Infernal guard with handweapon and shield: These guys are ok. Their damage output is not very high but they have a very good amor. They are always acompanied by my bsb to give them a stubborn rerollable leadership. If supported by a hell cannon, a great taurus or fireglaive infernal guards, they can break even stronger enemies.
-Infernal guard with fireglaives: These are a little overpriced but their st5 helps a lot in close combat and they can remove the remaining models after your st5 templates hit with shooting. I did play them as 25 strong units in horde formation and as 10 strong support units besides my sword and board guards but i think i prefer the latter.
-deathshriek rocket launcher: A versatile war machine that can be either used to target troops with a homing 5 inch st3 template or to target monsters with st9 and d6 damage. It however pales a little bit compared to the magma and hell cannon. This might be due to the fact that the other two war machines nearly always get the engineers reroll.
-Hobgoblin wolf raiders: Comparable to Goblin wolf riders but a little more expensive with a little better animosity rule and from your rare allowance. While they in theory they fullfil an important role as redirectors and war machine hunters, they seem to always die early on in my games. Maybe because my opponents realised that small missile fire is ineffective against most chaos dwarf troops and they become the only target for these troops.
-Bull centaur renders: These often dissapointed me. They were overrun by silver helms (they had great weapons and i got the charge) and broke from goblin wolf riders. The problem is that they do not generate enough active combat resolution with their 2 attacks and also do not have enough passive combat resolution. Maybe i should try them with a tauruk?
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 27, 2019 7:35:45 GMT
I think one of the big questions in list design is how to equip the Infernal Guard. I don't see Ironsworn as being a competitive pick because they are quite expensive and perhaps more importantly they come out Special. I don't see a reason to take them, when their core counterparts are just as good if not better. So that leaves us with 4 options.
We have two Melee focused builds and two ranged options.
HW & Shield: the cheapest choice and the most effective choice if your goal is to create an anvil unit. 3+ armour and parry makes for quite a nice defensive build. At S4 though they won't be killing very much.
GW: The best "hammer" option, but at the cost of some defense. Armour save is reduced to 4+ in CC and you have ASL (not that I2 was going to get you very far anyways). Strength 6 will definitely allow you to put a hurting on just about anything.
Fireglaive: The "jack of all trades" option. Not as potent in CC as the GW build, but S5 is far superior offensively than the HW & Shield or Blunderbuss options. You do sacrifice a point of armour and your parry save because the weapon is two handed in CC. I think the shooting is a bit more reliable than the blunderbuss (but at the sacrifice of maximal potential). Firstly, 18" range is quite a bit better than the pathetic 12" range of the Blunderbuss. Second, the Blunderbuss' effectiveness is much more closely tied to casualties, as you really have to keep your unit above 20 to make full use of them. Coupled with the fact that the weapon range is so short, you run the risk of taking causalities and losing your bonus before you ever get in range of the enemy. Lastly, the Blunderbuss is quite random as its effectiveness can vary 3 fold depending on what you roll for you multiple shots. Fireglaives are also S4 compared to the Blunderbuss' S3.
Blunderbuss: The best choice in terms of raw ranged killing potential and spatial deterrent. At 20 models in the unit you have a potential of 60 shots that ignore penalties for firing at long range or for a S&S reaction or for firing multiple shots, plus you re-roll failed to wound rolls. Very few enemy units will want to risk taking that many shots, so charging them from the front is something that should be avoided if possible. Your opponent would be wise to soften up the unit at range (because he/she will definitely out-range the unit) and bring their numbers below 20. Once the unit falls below the 20 mark, their effectiveness is greatly reduced. In terms of close combat, you're the equivalent to the HW & Shield build and thus have great defense but only S4.
So how does everyone feel about the options? Choosing between the ranged and melee options will likely come down to what play style you wish to employ. In terms of the melee options, think the goal is to protect war machines, because a purely melee unit with M3 might have difficulty making it into combat (and definitely not on their terms). You need these guys protecting your ranged threats in order to force the enemy to come to you. The ranged options on the other hand inherently draw the enemy on their own.
On paper (I don't actually own a CD army yet), I seemed to be inclined to go with the Fireglaives. They seem fairly dependable and are versatile in that they offer a boost to both shooting and close combat. I also like the fact that they have at least a somewhat decent range. In CC I feel that S5 goes a long way and a 4+ save is still okay (though not great).
So how do you guys rank these options?
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Post by strutsagget on Feb 27, 2019 11:57:20 GMT
I think one of the big questions in list design is how to equip the Infernal Guard. I don't see Ironsworn being a competitive pick because they are quite expensive and perhaps more importantly they come out Special. I don't see a reason to take them, when their core counterparts are just as good if not better. So that leaves us with 4 options. Comp So I need to test ironsworn. Rumors say they perform better than expected. Ws5 S5 3+/6++ is pretty naughty. Also command is cheaper then ironsworn. But 17p is expensive and compares to WS 4 S6 4+ at 15p. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 27, 2019 19:58:24 GMT
I think one of the big questions in list design is how to equip the Infernal Guard. I don't see Ironsworn being a competitive pick because they are quite expensive and perhaps more importantly they come out Special. I don't see a reason to take them, when their core counterparts are just as good if not better. So that leaves us with 4 options. Comp So I need to test ironsworn. Rumors say they perform better than expected. Ws5 S5 3+/6++ is pretty naughty. Also command is cheaper then ironsworn. But 17p is expensive and compares to WS 4 S6 4+ at 15p. The big issue for me is that Ironsworn come out of Special, while Infernal Guard are a core choice. As a result, going with Ironsworn means that you are committed to a primarily infantry based force as you still have to fill your core requirements. That also means that you will have to sacrifice some of those juicy war machines, big hitters (K'daai destroyers, Iron Daemon) or characters. |
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Post by strutsagget on Feb 28, 2019 15:45:28 GMT
So I need to test ironsworn. Rumors say they perform better than expected. Ws5 S5 3+/6++ is pretty naughty. Also command is cheaper then ironsworn. But 17p is expensive and compares to WS 4 S6 4+ at 15p. The big issue for me is that Ironsworn come out of Special, while Infernal Guard are a core choice. As a result, going with Ironsworn means that you are committed to a primarily infantry based force as you still have to fill your core requirements. That also means that you will have to sacrifice some of those juicy war machines, big hitters (K'daai destroyers, Iron Daemon) or characters. Well, I think it is very easy to build a list that can't win with chaos dwarfs as they have so many WM choices. The key is to keep the WM numbers down as they are support units. Hell cannon has a dual role though as it fits perfect with its 3” move in a 3” move army |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 28, 2019 17:48:13 GMT
Well, I think it is very easy to build a list that can't win with chaos dwarfs as they have so many WM choices. The key is to keep the WM numbers down as they are support units. Hell cannon has a dual role though as it fits perfect with its 3” move in a 3” move army That is a fair point. As a guideline how many warmachines (not counting the hellcannon because as you say it plays a dual role) would you suggest in a 2000pt game? 2400 point game? 3000 point game? |
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Post by strutsagget on Feb 28, 2019 18:00:17 GMT
Well, I think it is very easy to build a list that can't win with chaos dwarfs as they have so many WM choices. The key is to keep the WM numbers down as they are support units. Hell cannon has a dual role though as it fits perfect with its 3” move in a 3” move army That is a fair point. As a guideline how many warmachines (not counting the hellcannon because as you say it plays a dual role) would you suggest in a 2000pt game? 2400 point game? 3000 point game? I think it of course depends on list as a classical corner castle is built around shooting runs 2 magmas, 2 shriekers and 2 hell cannons at 2500p. With two engineers for rerolls at each setup. I have not found the perfect amount yet but I like running 1 or two at 2000p or less and then maybe add one per 500p but that don't know much of as we so far play mostly less then 2000p |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 28, 2019 21:40:42 GMT
That is a fair point. As a guideline how many warmachines (not counting the hellcannon because as you say it plays a dual role) would you suggest in a 2000pt game? 2400 point game? 3000 point game? a classical corner castle is built around shooting runs 2 magmas, 2 shriekers and 2 hell cannons at 2500p. With two engineers for rerolls at each setup. Wow, that is a lot of warmachines squeezed into 2500 points. I would thought there to be much less. I'm currently tinkering with my first ever 3000 point list and I don't have that many. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 1, 2019 4:30:10 GMT
I think one of the big questions in list design is how to equip the Infernal Guard. I don't see Ironsworn as being a competitive pick because they are quite expensive and perhaps more importantly they come out Special. I don't see a reason to take them, when their core counterparts are just as good if not better. So that leaves us with 4 options. We have two Melee focused builds and two ranged options. HW & Shield: the cheapest choice and the most effective choice if your goal is to create an anvil unit. 3+ armour and parry makes for quite a nice defensive build. At S4 though they won't be killing very much. GW: The best "hammer" option, but at the cost of some defense. Armour save is reduced to 4+ in CC and you have ASL (not that I2 was going to get you very far anyways). Strength 6 will definitely allow you to put a hurting on just about anything. Fireglaive: The "jack of all trades" option. Not as potent in CC as the GW build, but S5 is far superior offensively than the HW & Shield or Blunderbuss options. You do sacrifice a point of armour and your parry save because the weapon is two handed in CC. I think the shooting is a bit more reliable than the blunderbuss (but at the sacrifice of maximal potential). Firstly, 18" range is quite a bit better than the pathetic 12" range of the Blunderbuss. Second, the Blunderbuss' effectiveness is much more closely tied to casualties, as you really have to keep your unit above 20 to make full use of them. Coupled with the fact that the weapon range is so short, you run the risk of taking causalities and losing your bonus before you ever get in range of the enemy. Lastly, the Blunderbuss is quite random as its effectiveness can vary 3 fold depending on what you roll for you multiple shots. Fireglaives are also S4 compared to the Blunderbuss' S3. Blunderbuss: The best choice in terms of raw ranged killing potential and spatial deterrent. At 20 models in the unit you have a potential of 60 shots that ignore penalties for firing at long range or for a S&S reaction or for firing multiple shots, plus you re-roll failed to wound rolls. Very few enemy units will want to risk taking that many shots, so charging them from the front is something that should be avoided if possible. Your opponent would be wise to soften up the unit at range (because he/she will definitely out-range the unit) and bring their numbers below 20. Once the unit falls below the 20 mark, their effectiveness is greatly reduced. In terms of close combat, you're the equivalent to the HW & Shield build and thus have great defense but only S4. So how does everyone feel about the options? Choosing between the ranged and melee options will likely come down to what play style you wish to employ. In terms of the melee options, think the goal is to protect war machines, because a purely melee unit with M3 might have difficulty making it into combat (and definitely not on their terms). You need these guys protecting your ranged threats in order to force the enemy to come to you. The ranged options on the other hand inherently draw the enemy on their own. On paper (I don't actually own a CD army yet), I seemed to be inclined to go with the Fireglaives. They seem fairly dependable and are versatile in that they offer a boost to both shooting and close combat. I also like the fact that they have at least a somewhat decent range. In CC I feel that S5 goes a long way and a 4+ save is still okay (though not great). So how do you guys rank these options? Great breakdown of the core troop armament options. Excellent work. I don't really disagree with any of it. I'll write about Ironsworn another time. Originally upon buying and reading the Forgeworld book I was a bit irked that GW's were 3 points compared with normal dwarfs however after long consideration and deliberation as well as writing and testing numerous lists I'm actually exceedingly happy with the costs of the core weapons and think FW deserve Hashut's blessing for the Legion of Azgorth. There is no single 'no brainer' option and that is superlative! As you say, I2 means great weapons aren't much of a drawback which is why GW dwarfs (paying 2 points) are the obvious option over HW/Shield dwarfs. At 3 points however it's a tough choice. I mean for 2 points more you could give them a fearsome shooting option and Strength 5 striking at initiative. I honestly think it comes down to preference and personal playstyle and what you do with the rest of the list. If you want pure durability and numbers then stock Infernal guard are the go. GW's for pure combat killing power are unrivalled. Fireglaives which you are leaning towards are arguably the best of both worlds but blunderbuss troops are by far the best for area control/deterrent and in combat the parry save is very noticeable compared with fireglaives. The difference in combat durability between a unit of blunderbuss troops and GW or Fireglaives is palpable. All 4 choices have their merits for the points and that is a very good thing! |
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 1, 2019 10:11:55 GMT
a classical corner castle is built around shooting runs 2 magmas, 2 shriekers and 2 hell cannons at 2500p. With two engineers for rerolls at each setup. Wow, that is a lot of warmachines squeezed into 2500 points. I would thought there to be much less. I'm currently tinkering with my first ever 3000 point list and I don't have that many. Indeed, but that is corner castle and not a lot of people like playing it and even less against it too often. I have never tried it so far. It was just an example of extremes. At 2500+ I would like to try 2 hellcannon or dreadquakes and 2 magma cannons. But I am open for more testing just saw a nice hobo build with ”only” 1 magma 1 shrieker in 2500p. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 1, 2019 14:57:45 GMT
Wow, that is a lot of warmachines squeezed into 2500 points. I would thought there to be much less. I'm currently tinkering with my first ever 3000 point list and I don't have that many. Indeed, but that is corner castle and not a lot of people like playing it and even less against it too often. I have never tried it so far. It was just an example of extremes. At 2500+ I would like to try 2 hellcannon or dreadquakes and 2 magma cannons. But I am open for more testing just saw a nice hobo build with ”only” 1 magma 1 shrieker in 2500p. Yeah I'm not a fan of it for the reasons you mentioned. I played a couple of games with similarish theory but no hobgoblins or hellcannons (no equivalent models, couldn't bring myself to use night goblins as hobgoblins). Possibly because I had no hobgoblins but I think it loses out to equivalent dwarf gunline builds due to higher average points costs for units/Warmachines and lack of cannons. It is also very vulnerable to 'I' test and die spells and shooting phase shutdown lists and it's so skewed you can't even blame an opponent for counter list building. Now onto the good part of the list. It can be absolutely devastating to opponents if things go your way. I'd have 2 death rockets, 2 magma cannons and an Earthshaker cannon (mortar) along with 2 daemonsmiths (1 with dispell scroll just like the hobgoblins list). If the reroll isn't needed for the Earthshaker or Magmas then it can be used on the Death Rockets so regardless of list I certainly agree with leaving the Smith within range of 2 or 3 war machines. The sweet spot (for you, not your opponent who won't want to play you) is hitting their big powerful unit with Ash storm which neuters them and landing a round of templateageddon on them. I saw firsthand how brutal the chaos dwarf shooting can be when I successfully cast Ashstorm on his gutstar and hit it with 2 magma cannon templates. He actually rage quit... which was somewhat amusing but also a bit of a bummer and discouraged me from playing such skew. Ashstorm makes the victim unit flammable so multiwound units take double damage from the magma cannon. They also can't charge you in the next turn. If that wasn't bad enough their spell caster is neutered and can't cast spells. That combined with the sheer devastation that the Chaos Dwarf shooting phase has means that the only time I actually think it's justified is when it hits something like a BOWD lionstar who deserve do be fried while choking to death. If you can Ashstorm 1 enemy unit and Earthshaker another (gnoblars in above OK game) then it makes it hard for an opponent to hit you in force....and if they are facing down a blunderbuss horde you can imagine the feeling of futility an opponent feels. Chaos Dwarfs vs Ogre Kingdoms game mentioned was over in 3 turns. 2 Death Rocket shots....2 dead Ironblasters.... lucky me.... unlucky him. Strength 8 is as good as Strength 10 vs many things and D6 wounds is D6 wounds. With castle and other builds I think at least 1 Death Rocket is required to take out things like Ironblasters or chariots or other war machines that you don't really want to be wasting your 'super' artillery on. If you have 2 then you are well equipped to deal with several enemy threats. The Doom Rocket is very versatile for the points and once high threat targets are eliminated is great for smashing low armor/toughness units with it's large template. I didn't use such magic but have read of people using toughness debuff spells to assist with this. The potential of Ashstorm +Shadow debuff with a Hashut lore sorcerer on a shadow lore Lamassu means I want to try it one day. I have the model now...... If you play a castle dwarf with your castle chaos dwarfs....prepare for a boring ass game with no combat..... that you will probably lose but either way it's not very fun. I had 2 such games (first one random, second was a direct rematch) and as the Chaos Dwarf castle is based on not moving forward...and so is the dwarf castle...it almost feels pointless albeit a bit surreal. While we both had fun and a laugh it almost felt like we were playing a different game like battleship. I lost the first by a smidge and we called the second a draw after 4 turns and no combat fyi. So I do think castle builds are worth playing just to try but wouldn't recommend having that as your go to build. We are here to keep 8th edition alive....not kill it. |
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Post by Horace on Mar 1, 2019 15:11:33 GMT
My list and general plan before I bought everything was roughly what you mention, Dreadquake and Ashstorm to stifle the enemy advance. Death Rocket for the bigger items. I don't really see myself outright corner camping, but forcing the enemy forwards towards blocks of Blunders and other troops whilst hindering their movement to pick things off.
A Chaos Dwarf advance is hardly going to be rapid anyway so I don't think you really need to be sat right back in the corner. I also dislike completely ceding the movement phase to my enemy. That said, shooting and magic are clearly Chaos Dwarf strengths and have to be maximised due to the high price everything costs
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 1, 2019 15:21:57 GMT
Ironsworn..... I like em! Imo the FW models represent Ironsworn as they look pretty menacing and have ensorcelled axes to my eyes. (standard oop chaos dwarf sculpts can represent Infernal guard fine) Anecdotally..I have only ever used them twice (25 strong anvil both times) and used Ironbreakers as proxy Ironsworn. I expected to be disappointed...I was not. They survived both games and gave as good as they got in combat. Afterwards I did the mathhammer vs the core Chaos Dwarf options in close combat and they truly are elite (seriously run the numbers). After running the figures I'm ok with their whopping 17 point cost. I won't talk about the command options/pricing because I prefer to see that as a misprint in the book (10 point each for standard, champion and musician in 8th please) ....12 points for an infernal guard champion... wtf?? Anyway I digress and am getting distracted. Back to the fearsome Ironsworn. I'm all about the universe and the epic story that each battle tells as well as just the all round amazing setting that Warhammer fantasy is all about. To me the rules have succeeded if they make me 'feel' a miniature on the tabletop. Ironsworn do that. Ironsworn have ensorcelled weapons...why would they have that? I'll tell why....they are the elite of the Legior of Azgot and Kdaii and Taurus are resistant to non magical weapons. Of course the ruthless but efficient Chaos Dwarfs of Azgorth would arm their most fearsome guys with the weapons to deal with such monstrosities if things got out of hand. If a Kdaii or Great Taurus gets out of line or goes rogue, how do the Chaos Dwarfs deal with them? Send in the Ironsworn with their magically enchanted weaponry that can do real damage to the blazing body beasts. Ironsworn vs Great Taurus...... Ironsworn hit on a 3+, wounds on a 4+...no saves allowed. Yeah I think that Taurus will be pretty well behaved while Ironsworn are around. The elite points make sense. The elite stats make sense. The elite equipment makes sense. Ironsworn......they make sense! |
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 2, 2019 20:48:49 GMT
The guard champ get +1 WS and A. That's why it's 12 and not 10 😃
Absolutely impossible to remember.
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