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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 2, 2019 20:32:10 GMT
I just wanted to start up a conversation on how the Chaos Dwarfs army compares to other armies in terms of power level. To that end... Overall, in what power level tier would you place Chaos Dwarfs? (choose from the following and explain) - Top tier
- High tier
- Mid tier
- Low tier
- Bottom tier
Against which armies (assuming even generalship skill and list building) do Chaos Dwarfs have a favorable match up? Unfavorable match up? Even match up? Cheers, |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 3, 2019 14:27:18 GMT
I put them as 'upper' mid tier.
Great war machines, great leadership (including access to stubborn) and great exclusive magic make them a fearsome force.
The biggest weakness is lack of options as it's just the 'Legion of Azgorth' army list and not the full Chaos Dwarf army list. Hero options are ok with a wizard, centaur and chaos dwarf option. Lord section has 1 special character and 1 Sorcerer Prophet and that's it. Fitting for the Legion of Azgorth but if there was to be a list for Chaos Dwarfs as a whole including all their cities it would also include a bull centaur and chaos dwarf warrior lord option at minimum as well as additional special characters (ie Astragoth, Shar'Tor etc)
Second biggest weakness would be the standard dwarf weakness of lack of movement speed. While there are mobile options available in the army this makes the overall army relatively static compared to most other Warhammer armies.
Third would be high average points costs across the board. The Chaos Dwarfs don't have the same level of 'disposable' units that many other armies have.
Chaos Dwarfs match up exceptionally well against Tomb Kings who will really struggle with their leadership being flammable and their lack of movement. The Tomb Kings will struggle against the high toughness/armor of the chaos dwarfs as well as their shooting/magic. This is imo standout favourable matchup for the Chaos Dwarfs.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 3, 2019 15:56:28 GMT
Chaos Dwarfs match up exceptionally well against Tomb Kings who will really struggle with their leadership being flammable and their lack of movement. The Tomb Kings will struggle against the high toughness/armor of the chaos dwarfs as well as their shooting/magic. This is imo standout favourable matchup for the Chaos Dwarfs. I definitely see your point, poor Tomb Kings! Are there any bad army match ups for Chaos Dwarfs? |
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 3, 2019 18:09:56 GMT
I have found skaven really hard in low point games so far. OnG is probably favorable and has about 75% win as magma cannon feels nuts in this matchup and lore of death is amazing at sniping annoying chariots, /chaff/ magsquigs. But I have too few games for it to be statistically proven. Ogres feel like 50/50. But that is our skewed playgroup so many factors to count  |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 4, 2019 6:58:42 GMT
I have found skaven really hard in low point games so far. OnG is probably favorable and has about 75% win as magma cannon feels nuts in this matchup and lore of death is amazing at sniping annoying chariots, /chaff/ magsquigs. But I have too few games for it to be statistically proven. Ogres feel like 50/50. But that is our skewed playgroup so many factors to count And overall what tier would you say Chaos Dwarfs belong to?... Top tier High tier Mid tier Low tier Bottom tier |
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 4, 2019 6:59:22 GMT
Mid tier.
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Post by Horace on Mar 4, 2019 10:53:17 GMT
I'm surprised they rank so highly in people's opinion. I haven't used them but just from having studied their book they seem expensive and very elite, making them particularly unforgiving and susceptible to high damage spells/attacks/war machines.
Lore of Hashut is badass though
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 5, 2019 2:58:31 GMT
Lore of Hashut is badass though Ash Storm has to be the most versatile spell in all of warhammer. It does just about everything. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 5, 2019 14:19:16 GMT
Chaos Dwarfs match up exceptionally well against Tomb Kings who will really struggle with their leadership being flammable and their lack of movement. The Tomb Kings will struggle against the high toughness/armor of the chaos dwarfs as well as their shooting/magic. This is imo standout favourable matchup for the Chaos Dwarfs. I definitely see you point, poor Tomb Kings! Are there any bad army match ups for Chaos Dwarfs? I think Dwarfs are a tough matchup for chaos Dwarfs with cheaper average points costs and many of the same strengths. They have the advantage of rangers and miners in addition to cheaper flying units giving them the movement advantage. Their unit shooting (Thunderers and Quarrellers) outrange the chaos dwarf options and are cheaper. Cannons can kill the chaos dwarf warmachines more effectively than the chaos Dwarfs can kill theirs. Dwarf engineers/runes are a direct counterpart to Daemonsmiths in terms of increasing war machine efficiency. Hobgoblins are little threat to dwarfs. I think dark elves are a tough matchup when tailored to be anti Chaos Dwarfs with exceptional movement and unit variety in addition to brutal magic. Pegasus sorceress and other wizardry shenanigans can cause devastation to the low initiative, relatively static chaos dwarf battle lines. While Chaos Dwarfs can cause great damage to dark elf armies the lower average points cost, speed and formidable magic make this a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are little threat to dark elves. I think Skaven are also a very tough matchup with magic items and spells which are gigantic threats to Chaos Dwarf armies. This along with fearsome war machines and masses of cheap troops into which they can shoot make for a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are a threat to skaven but skaven can do cheap low quality troops better than Chaos Dwarfs/hobgoblins can. The above 3 matchups stand out to me as being hard for the more limited in options Legion of Azgorth to deal with. All 3 can take out hobgoblin heroes/redirectors quite easily with shooting and have either the magic or shooting to directly combat the Chaos Dwarfs at one of their greatest strengths. Each of the 3 armies listed matchup very differently vs chaos Dwarfs however which is a good thing and keeps things interesting. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 7, 2019 6:53:23 GMT
I definitely see you point, poor Tomb Kings! Are there any bad army match ups for Chaos Dwarfs? I think Dwarfs are a tough matchup for chaos Dwarfs with cheaper average points costs and many of the same strengths. They have the advantage of rangers and miners in addition to cheaper flying units giving them the movement advantage. Their unit shooting (Thunderers and Quarrellers) outrange the chaos dwarf options and are cheaper. Cannons can kill the chaos dwarf warmachines more effectively than the chaos Dwarfs can kill theirs. Dwarf engineers/runes are a direct counterpart to Daemonsmiths in terms of increasing war machine efficiency. Hobgoblins are little threat to dwarfs. I think dark elves are a tough matchup when tailored to be anti Chaos Dwarfs with exceptional movement and unit variety in addition to brutal magic. Pegasus sorceress and other wizardry shenanigans can cause devastation to the low initiative, relatively static chaos dwarf battle lines. While Chaos Dwarfs can cause great damage to dark elf armies the lower average points cost, speed and formidable magic make this a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are little threat to dark elves. I think Skaven are also a very tough matchup with magic items and spells which are gigantic threats to Chaos Dwarf armies. This along with fearsome war machines and masses of cheap troops into which they can shoot make for a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are a threat to skaven but skaven can do cheap low quality troops better than Chaos Dwarfs/hobgoblins can. The above 3 matchups stand out to me as being hard for the more limited in options Legion of Azgorth to deal with. All 3 can take out hobgoblin heroes/redirectors quite easily with shooting and have either the magic or shooting to directly combat the Chaos Dwarfs at one of their greatest strengths. Each of the 3 armies listed matchup very differently vs chaos Dwarfs however which is a good thing and keeps things interesting. So what do you think would be the best strategy for Chaos Dwarfs to counter those armies? Any specific army builds? Any specific units or magic items? Deployment? General strategy? |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 9, 2019 4:13:36 GMT
I think Dwarfs are a tough matchup for chaos Dwarfs with cheaper average points costs and many of the same strengths. They have the advantage of rangers and miners in addition to cheaper flying units giving them the movement advantage. Their unit shooting (Thunderers and Quarrellers) outrange the chaos dwarf options and are cheaper. Cannons can kill the chaos dwarf warmachines more effectively than the chaos Dwarfs can kill theirs. Dwarf engineers/runes are a direct counterpart to Daemonsmiths in terms of increasing war machine efficiency. Hobgoblins are little threat to dwarfs. I think dark elves are a tough matchup when tailored to be anti Chaos Dwarfs with exceptional movement and unit variety in addition to brutal magic. Pegasus sorceress and other wizardry shenanigans can cause devastation to the low initiative, relatively static chaos dwarf battle lines. While Chaos Dwarfs can cause great damage to dark elf armies the lower average points cost, speed and formidable magic make this a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are little threat to dark elves. I think Skaven are also a very tough matchup with magic items and spells which are gigantic threats to Chaos Dwarf armies. This along with fearsome war machines and masses of cheap troops into which they can shoot make for a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are a threat to skaven but skaven can do cheap low quality troops better than Chaos Dwarfs/hobgoblins can. The above 3 matchups stand out to me as being hard for the more limited in options Legion of Azgorth to deal with. All 3 can take out hobgoblin heroes/redirectors quite easily with shooting and have either the magic or shooting to directly combat the Chaos Dwarfs at one of their greatest strengths. Each of the 3 armies listed matchup very differently vs chaos Dwarfs however which is a good thing and keeps things interesting. So what do you think would be the best strategy for Chaos Dwarfs to counter those armies? Any specific army builds? Any specific units or magic items? Deployment? General strategy? Dwarfs first Well against the dwarfs I would go against the standard defensive gameplay and instead go offensive and try and beat them in melee. Rather than trying to eliminate the war machines with shooting which is normally a solid tactic I would try to do everything I could to soften up the hammerers with shooting which are by far the biggest dwarven combat threat. Normally Ash Storm/Hashut lore is an Ace of Spades but against dwarfs the antimagic of it isn't any use so would seriously consider taking death on the prophet for same reason it's potent devastating against Chaos Dwarfs which isn't the leadership spells. Blood of Hashut for sure as the chance of being able to use it on a high armour save dwarf would be high. You really want to get lucky in this matchup with them not getting army wide hatred. So basically soften up hammerers and take em out. Try not to lose any major units myself. Thunderers and Quarrellers will fall in combat also. No Iron Daemon. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 10, 2019 22:39:06 GMT
So what do you think would be the best strategy for Chaos Dwarfs to counter those armies? Any specific army builds? Any specific units or magic items? Deployment? General strategy? Dwarfs first Well against the dwarfs I would go against the standard defensive gameplay and instead go offensive and try and beat them in melee. Rather than trying to eliminate the war machines with shooting which is normally a solid tactic I would try to do everything I could to soften up the hammerers with shooting which are by far the biggest dwarven combat threat. Normally Ash Storm/Hashut lore is an Ace of Spades but against dwarfs the antimagic of it isn't any use so would seriously consider taking death on the prophet for same reason it's potent devastating against Chaos Dwarfs which isn't the leadership spells. Blood of Hashut for sure as the chance of being able to use it on a high armour save dwarf would be high. You really want to get lucky in this matchup with them not getting army wide hatred. So basically soften up hammerers and take em out. Try not to lose any major units myself. Thunderers and Quarrellers will fall in combat also. No Iron Daemon. Agreed that the Iron Daemon is a big no. It would be cannon food. I imagine that the Dwarfs cannons are the difference makers that will tip the war machine vs. war machine battle in their favor. It just seems that the cannons would be the best choice for taking out enemy artillery. The only exception would be if you had line of sight covering terrain (say a building) that you could stick your war machines behind. That way cannons couldn't hit them, but a stone thrower like a Hellcannon or Dreadquake Mortar could still fire at them indirectly. A rare scenario, but still one to note. I agree that Hashut is a risky lore to take against Dwarfs because if lucky enough they could easily permanently destroy Ash Storm. Death is also tricky, because of its short range, but a Purple Sun would ruin their day real fast! So the question remains, if going with an offensive melee build, what do you take? Infernal Guard are extremely slow at M3. You're looking at a turn 4 charge at best. So aside from core, what would you suggest? K'daai Destroyers? K'daai Fireborn? Bull Centaur Renders + Taur'ruk? |
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Post by knoffles on Mar 12, 2019 9:55:54 GMT
Just a quick thought on this. Do you all normally tailor lists when facing specific foes? Would it also be good to cover some generic all comers lists (or what you normally take - say due to model restrictions) and then how you would adapt the lost against various opponents.
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Post by Horace on Mar 12, 2019 13:26:58 GMT
I don't generally list tailor. We have a selection of armies available to us so I know it will be one of those, but nothing beyond that (unless I know my brother has a newly painted model..) |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 12, 2019 14:50:08 GMT
I don't usually tailor lists either, but it is a fun theoretical exercise. Also, it helps build all comers lists as well, as you devise units that you should include in your lists to be able to take on all sorts of threats.
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