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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 19, 2019 3:25:54 GMT
Awesome write up! What would you say are the Dark Elf units that give Chaos Dwarfs the hardest time? You mentioned 3 death rockets, do you prefer them over the Magma cannon? And if so, why? I'll come back to Dark Elves. I'd like to address your question about the Magna Cannon. The Magma Cannon is a great piece and arguably the most competitive thing in the entire LOA army. You can run 3 Death Rockets and a Magma Cannon for less than half of your special allocation at 2000 points. So running 3 Death Rockets doesnt mean that you need to skip the Magma Cannon. The fact that these 4 war machines cost only as much as a lvl 4 Prophet on Great Taurus says a lot about how effective LOA artillery is and how expensive the only Lord choice is. I am biased against the Magma Cannon. I'll admit it now. The Death Rocket was part of the original Chaos Dwarf army list so I have nostalgia towards it. I have had bad experiences using the Magma Cannon...... Take a journey back with me to when Tamurkhan is just released and I ordered it from my local GW and have a childlike enthusiasm and rush to pick it up after a long work day as soon as it's released. I ignore most of the contents and skip straight to the Legion of Azgorth section which I pore over. Up until then I had been playing my chaos Dwarf models as normal dwarfs using their 7th edition armybook where the Dwarf flame Cannon is terrible (was considered the worst war machine in the game at that point, they fixed it in the 8th edition dwarf book and gave it some range back) I still used it a couple of times as I liked the model. So I read the LOA list and my head goes wild with possibilities. I do numerous lists I think huzzah, I can use my Flame Cannon model (as a Magma Cannon) and bring it with 2 Chaos Dwarf crew to go with the attached guy with the goggles. (who could already be a Chaos Dwarf) I joyfully pack up my army of painted Chaos Dwarfs and the next week go to my local GW for a game with them. I am excited....my first game with the Legion of Azgorth! I win the game, dominantly. The Magma Cannon is 'on fire' and melts many elves. My opponent quits (he could have come back and won). Rather than being a good sport about it (and during the game it was like this) all he does is bitch and moan. I honestly didn't care about the result....I just wanted to use my Chaos Dwarfs!!!! "Magna Cannon is so broken" "It's the same cost as the Dwarf flame Cannon but so much better, look how broken it is", "That's bullshit" "Typical Forgeworld rules" This coming from a guy who always used the 7th edition dark elves book pendant of Khaileth. Anyway it was not a pleasant experience and he would tell anyone in reach how broken the new 'Forgeworld' Chaos Dwarfs were and their broken Magma Cannon was. So my next few lists didn't include a Magma Cannon. So yeah, that's my Magma Cannon story. I totally understand you, that would not be the greatest experience with a new army that you were so excited to field. The Magma Cannon is awesome, but every army has something that is extremely powerful (especially an army like Dark Elves, who are one of the top armies in the game). Even bottom tier armies can field extremely powerful elements such as the Casket of Souls (Tomb Kings), Herdstone (Beastmen) and the flying HKB lord (Bretonnia). It's a shame that you didn't unleash the Chalice on him as well!! hahaha
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 19, 2019 7:03:32 GMT
Dark Elves Against Dark Elves I really think 3 Death Rockets is a good idea. It's not too over the top as Death Rockets are well balanced but it's a great counter to things like witch elf hordes and also effective against their monsters. If going 3 I put one of them far away off to the side as a solo rocket which can still do damage but is diversionary if they want to send things after it in melee. Definitely a Lvl 4 against Dark elves along with a Daemonsmith (or 2) to go with the war machines. I'm not experienced at using Kdaii Fireborn (no suitable models and ogre/dragon ogres make for poor proxies so only tried a couple of times) but think that with their burn this could be a favourable matchup for them. A unit of 3 isn't so many points and at that point level where the opponent might not want to use/waste toughness debuff (for toughness test) spells on them. Earthshaker Cannon is magic against Dark Elves (all elves actually). I love it! With 6 wounds it's hard to take in combat as well. Strength 5 decimates their units and the Earthshaker effect is just gravy. For core, I wouldn't use great weapon Dwarfs in this matchup. The Strength 6 is wasted and the armor save loss will be felt. Fire glaives at strength 5 are just as effective vs most dark elf options and the shooting is likely very beneficial. Blunderbuss and standard infernal guard matchup well. I'd likely go with one of these 2 options for the main block. I think the 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons (which i am a massive fan of as previously stated) don't particularly like the dark elf matchup so would potentially be swapped out for Kdaii Fireborn if I had the models. Alternatively more Warmachines (Magma) or even Ironsworn I think do well vs Dark Elves. Ironsworn with the WS5 and strength 5 and 3+ armor save and parry do surprisingly well against the dark elf troops. Dark Elves are a very tough and versatile army but Chaos Dwarfs can certainly put fear into them. I actually think Chaos Dwarfs vs Dark Elves is quite a fun and interesting matchup and puts two of the most ruthless and self serving races against each other. If playing Chaos Dwarfs I would be fine facing a witch elf horde and be more scared of things like shades and other various Dark Elf sneaky tricks. Thankfully that accursed 7th edition Pendant they had is gone so I have no qualms in facing their 8th edition book which I think is much better (and less lobsided) overall. Basically I'm a fan of the 8th edition update Dark Elves received. I do play Dark Elves myself from time to time albeit rarely. I don't own any witch elves myself (besides a Hag Queen) so maybe that's why I like to see them Imo a less 'annoying' matchup than Dwarfs or Skaven for the Chaos Dwarf Legion. Awesome write up! What would you say are the Dark Elf units that give Chaos Dwarfs the hardest time? You mentioned 3 death rockets, do you prefer them over the Magma cannon? And if so, why? On the topic of dark elves they have several units which give Chaos Dwarfs a hard time but rather than go into that I'm going to single out a unit which is one of the very worst close combat matchups for the Legion of Azgorth in the entire game ans go slightly in depth about it. Executioners. Khaines chosen. One of my favourite units in the dark elf army, all models released for Executioners are great and I'm a big fan.....but to Chaos Dwarfs they are a nightmare. To shooting, they die as easy as spear elves. This is the preferred and recommended way of dealing with them. Templates and weight of fire decimate the t3, 5+ armor save executioners. At shooting range they are one of the best matchups to Chaos Dwarfs. To an Earthshaker or Hellcannon blast they die as easy as goblins. If they get into combat though they are a nightmare and here's why! First if all, they have killing blow so foot Prophets, Castellans and Smiths are all at risk and unless you have some extremet funky item load out the Executioners will swing and potentially kill your expensive and well armored characters before the poor Chaos Dwarfs can lift a gnarled finger. The asf cancels the asl from their Draich's so Executioners strike before everything in the entire Chaos Dwarf army. A 6 to wound and they make a mockery of the expensive Chaos Dwarf armor. Delve with me into the mathhammer matchup so I can elaborate on just how bad this matchup is for the Chaos Dwarfs. This example is between a 30 strong horde of Executioners and a 30 strong horde of Infernal Guard armed with Great Weapons (one of the most popular LOA core choices, probably due to the oop models). In a strickly combat sense, ignoring shooting, the Great Weapon chaos dwarfs fare identically to Fireglaives so this example applies to both. Both units 10 wide, note that the Executioner unit is actually cheaper in points than both of these 2 Legion of Azgorth core options and will shred them with extreme prejudice! Executioners strike first, 30 attacks, hitting on 3's (Ironsworn actually fare better in hypotheticals vs Executioners being close to a full 50% more resilient which is noteworthy). 20 successful hits wounding on a very easy 2+ (toughness 4 is useless in this instance) with a murderous prowess reroll that means that even with below average rolling the Executioners will still kill over half of the unit before it even gets to retaliate. On average rolling the Executioners are killing close to 2 thirds of the unit before they can even react. The Executioners Strength 6 is the exact sweet spot where both the Chaos Dwarfs Toughness 4 and 4+ armor save is circumvented. Absolutely brutal. Bull Centaurs fare little better being hit on a 3+ and wounded on a 3+ rerolling 1's they will likely also be killed/broken in one combat round. I've never in game tested this option but Fireborn fare better with their blazing bodies allowing the chance to do some damage to the T3 executioners before they get to strike. Kdaii Destroyer can do some real damage but with the Executioners having Strength 6 this is still a very dangerous matchup. So basically if they can get into combat with the Legion of Azgorth, dark elf Executioners live up to their name and are to be feared!
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 20, 2019 6:18:41 GMT
Kdaii Destroyer can do some real damage but with the Executioners having Strength 6 this is still a very dangerous matchup. So basically if they can get into combat with the Legion of Azgorth, dark elf Executioners live up to their name and are to be feared! I agree with your analysis, the poor Chaotic stunties don't fair to well in close combat, but I think there are a few exceptions, the most notable of which is the K'daai Destroyer (as you stated) Let's look at a 27 (324pts) strong horde of Executioners in horde formation vs. the K'daai Destroyer (325pts). Round 1: 27 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (6 wounds remaining)Executioners (7 in base contact + 14 supporting attacks): 21 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 21*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 1.7 woundsK'daai Destroyer Blazing Body 7 auto-hits at S4: [wounding on 3's] * [6+ armour save] 7*0.667*0.833 = 3.9 wounds
6 Regular attacks and 2 for frenzy * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 2's] 8*0.5*0.833 = 3.3 wounds
Thunderstomp average 3.5 hits * [wounding on 2's] 3.5*0.833 = 2.9 wounds
K'daai Destroyer does 10.1 wounds
Executioners lose combat, hold on steadfast 9 Round 2: 17 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (4 wounds remaining)
Executioners (reformed 7 wide + 7 supporting attacks): 14 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 14*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 1.2 woundsK'daai Destroyer does 10.1 woundsExecutioners lose combat, hold on steadfast 9 Round 3: 7 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (3 wounds remaining)
Executioners (reformed 4 wide + 3 supporting attacks): 7 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 7*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 0.6 wounds
K'daai Destroyer does 8.4 wounds
Executioners are wiped out to the last man. The Executioners fall in 3 rounds of combat, and the Destroyer is left on 2-3 wounds remaining. So like you said, it is dangerous for the Destroyer, but it should get the job done. Also, if the Executioners should fail their fear test, it would skew further in favour of the Destroyer. I'll dive into some other CC counters tomorrow. (unless I forget, or I'm too lazy) Edited: I forgot to enter the Destroyer's extra attacks due to frenzy, the calculations have been updated
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 22, 2019 2:31:36 GMT
Kdaii Destroyer can do some real damage but with the Executioners having Strength 6 this is still a very dangerous matchup. So basically if they can get into combat with the Legion of Azgorth, dark elf Executioners live up to their name and are to be feared! I agree with your analysis, the poor Chaotic stunties don't fair to well in close combat, but I think there are a few exceptions, the most notable of which is the K'daai Destroyer (as you stated) Let's look at a 27 (324pts) strong horde of Executioners in horde formation vs. the K'daai Destroyer (325pts). Round 1: 27 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (6 wounds remaining)Executioners (7 in base contact + 14 supporting attacks): 21 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 21*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 1.7 woundsK'daai Destroyer Blazing Body 7 auto-hits at S4: [wounding on 3's] * [6+ armour save] 7*0.667*0.833 = 3.9 wounds
6 Regular attacks and 2 for frenzy * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 2's] 8*0.5*0.833 = 3.3 wounds
Thunderstomp average 3.5 hits * [wounding on 2's] 3.5*0.833 = 2.9 wounds
K'daai Destroyer does 10.1 wounds
Executioners lose combat, hold on steadfast 9 Round 2: 17 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (4 wounds remaining)
Executioners (reformed 7 wide + 7 supporting attacks): 14 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 14*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 1.2 woundsK'daai Destroyer does 10.1 woundsExecutioners lose combat, hold on steadfast 9 Round 3: 7 Executioners vs. K'daai Destroyer (3 wounds remaining)
Executioners (reformed 4 wide + 3 supporting attacks): 7 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] * [re-rolling successful wounds on 4's AND re-rolling failed rolls of 1 on 4's] * [4+ ward save] 7*0.5*(0.66*0.5)*0.5 = 0.6 wounds
K'daai Destroyer does 8.4 wounds
Executioners are wiped out to the last man. The Executioners fall in 3 rounds of combat, and the Destroyer is left on 2-3 wounds remaining. So like you said, it is dangerous for the Destroyer, but it should get the job done. Also, if the Executioners should fail their fear test, it would skew further in favour of the Destroyer. I'll dive into some other CC counters tomorrow. (unless I forget, or I'm too lazy) Edited: I forgot to enter the Destroyer's extra attacks due to frenzy, the calculations have been updatedYep, that just goes to show how devastating the Destroyer is. Due to its speed and output it is by far the biggest combat threat the Legion of Azgorth have. Thanks for providing the full mathhammer, that was very thorough and provides a great point of reference for anyone viewing the thread. Due to its arguable OPness for the points the Destroyer matches up well against well over half of the things in the game in a head to head combat matchup. If I got that hypothetical matchup (Destroyer into Executioner horde) I'd be very happy (as the LOA player) and would then consider it paramount to stop any debuffs cast on the Destroyer (especially toughness ones which are a double whammy with the toughness test). Also buffs cast on the Executioners which would give them 'magic attacks' as due to the high risk nature of the combat either of these could swing it drastically. If you are in a mathhammering mood (only if!!!!), it would be great to see the full breakdown of the Kdaii Destroyer into equivalent LOA Infernal Guard with Great Weapons, LOA Infernal Guard with Fireglaives and their same points special equivalent the infamous LOA Ironsworn. In this LOA vs LOA matchup the Ironsworn with their enchanted weaponry make for an interesting matchup vs the Destroyer. I haven't actually done any of the above mathhammering myself but suspect that the low initiative of the Chaos Dwarfs will cost them greatly in comparison to the Executioners although their resilience against the burn attacks makes things interesting. I'm curious as to just how many wounds a unit of 30 (450 points!!!!) the Great Weapon armed Infernal Guard would expect to do against the Destroyer before they fall.......or do they bring it down?
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 22, 2019 2:34:59 GMT
Next up, 30 Executioners (360 points) vs. Hellbound Iron Daemon with Skullcracker upgrade (340 points).
The ID has a 60X100mm base, so that means 5 Executioners are in base contact.
Round 1: 30 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (8 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 10 supporting attacks) 15 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 15*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.6 wounds
Iron Daemon
Chaos Dwarf Crew = 3 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] + [5+ armour save] 3*1/2*1/2*2/3= 0.5 wounds
Thunderstomps (2d6) = 7 hits *[wounding on 2's] 7*5/6 = 5.8 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
Round 2: 24 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (6.4 wounds remaining) Executioners (5 in base contact + 9 supporting attacks)
14 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save]
14*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.5 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
Round 4: 18 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (4.9 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks)
10 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save]
10*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.1 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
Round 4: 12 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (3.8 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks)
10 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save]
10*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.1 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
Round 5: 6 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (2.7 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 1 supporting attack)
6 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save]
6*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 0.6 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
The Executioners are completely wiped out. The Iron Daemon is sitting on 2 wounds. Keep in mind that terror checks were not included in the calculations, nor break tests (and the Executioners lose every round of combat). Also, if the ID could secure the charge it would cause on average 7.5 wounds before the rest of the combat even begins. It is a close battle, but the ID with the right upgrades seems to have the edge.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 22, 2019 2:40:10 GMT
Kdaii Destroyer vs Ironsworn/Infernal Guard with great weapons challenge!
325 points (323) is only 19 Ironsworn but I suspect that they would still fare better against the Destroyer than 22 Infernal Guard with Great Weapons (330 points) in a hypothetical matchup against the Kdaii Destroyer and show their worth.
Of course they are special vs core but lets ignore that for now.
The Destroyer ignores their better armor save (3+ vs 4+ as well)
Also, due to the fire wardsave I'm thinking they lose their parry save? I'm not sure about it? It comes into play so rarely.
Even with these shutdowns to the Ironsworn benefits I'm counting on their better WS and enchanted weaponry making the difference vs the fearsome Destroyer.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 22, 2019 2:43:45 GMT
Next up, 30 Executioners (360 points) vs. Hellbound Iron Daemon with Skullcracker upgrade (340 points). The ID has a 60X100mm base, so that means 5 Executioners are in base contact. Round 1: 30 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (8 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 10 supporting attacks) 15 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 15*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.6 wounds
Iron Daemon Chaos Dwarf Crew = 3 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 4's] + [5+ armour save] 3*1/2*1/2*2/3= 0.5 wounds
Thunderstomps (2d6) = 7 hits *[wounding on 2's] 7*5/6 = 5.8 woundsID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
Round 2: 24 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (6.4 wounds remaining)Executioners (5 in base contact + 9 supporting attacks) 14 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 14*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.5 woundsID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds Round 4: 18 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (4.9 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks) 10 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 10*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.1 wounds ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds Round 4: 12 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (3.8 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks) 10 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 10*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 1.1 wounds
ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 woundsRound 5: 6 Executioners vs. Iron Daemon (2.7 wounds remaining)
Executioners (5 in base contact + 1 supporting attack) 6 attacks * [hitting on 3's] * [wounding on 6's, re-rolling 1's] * [6+ armour save] 6*2/3*7/36*5/6 = 0.6 wounds ID Total = 0.5 + 5.8 = 6.3 wounds
The Executioners are completely wiped out. The Iron Daemon is sitting on 2 wounds. Keep in mind that terror checks were not included in the calculations, nor break tests (and the Executioners lose every round of combat). Also, if the ID could secure the charge it would cause on average 7.5 wounds before the rest of the combat even begins. It is a close battle, but the ID with the right upgrades seems to have the edge. Love it, that Hellbound upgrade seems like a bargain for 25 points in that instance. I do actually think it's a bargain on the Iron Daemon anyway but overpriced on something like a Magma Cannon or Death Rocket. Would you mind doing the same mathhammering with the 30 executioners vs the unupgraded Skullcracker. I must say I'm glad the hellbound Skullcracker pulps the Executioners. It's such a funky model.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 22, 2019 6:23:16 GMT
If you are in a mathhammering mood (only if!!!!), it would be great to see the full breakdown of the Kdaii Destroyer into equivalent LOA Infernal Guard with Great Weapons, LOA Infernal Guard with Fireglaives and their same points special equivalent the infamous LOA Ironsworn. In this LOA vs LOA matchup the Ironsworn with their enchanted weaponry make for an interesting matchup vs the Destroyer. I haven't actually done any of the above mathhammering myself but suspect that the low initiative of the Chaos Dwarfs will cost them greatly in comparison to the Executioners although their resilience against the burn attacks makes things interesting. I'm curious as to just how many wounds a unit of 30 (450 points!!!!) the Great Weapon armed Infernal Guard would expect to do against the Destroyer before they fall.......or do they bring it down? 30 Ironsworn Horde [510 points] vs. K'daai Destroyer [325 points] Round 1: 30 Ironsworn vs. K'daai Destroyer (6 wounds remaining)K'daai Destroyer Blazing Body 7 auto-hits at S4: [wounding on 4's] * [4+ armour save] * [5+ ward] 7*1/2*1/2*2/3 = 1.2 wounds6 Regular attacks and 2 for frenzy * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 2's] * [5+ ward] 8*1/2*5/6*2/3 = 2.2 wounds
Thunderstomp average 3.5 hits * [wounding on 2's] * [5+ ward] 3.5*5/6*2/3 = 1.9 woundsK'daai Destroyer does 5.3 wounds
25 Ironsworn (7 in base contact + 12 supporting attacks) 19 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 5's] * [4+ ward save] 19*1/2*1/3*1/2 = 1.6 woundsRound 2: 25 Ironsworn vs. K'daai Destroyer (4.4 wounds remaining)
K'daai Destroyer does 5.3 wounds
20 Ironsworn (7 in base contact + 7 supporting attacks) 14 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 5's] * [4+ ward save] 14*1/2*1/3*1/2 = 1.2 woundsRound 3: 20 Ironsworn vs. K'daai Destroyer (3.2 wounds remaining)
K'daai Destroyer does 5.3 wounds
15 Ironsworn (7 in base contact + 7 supporting attacks) 14 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 5's] * [4+ ward save] 14*1/2*1/3*1/2 = 1.2 woundsRound 4: 15 Ironsworn vs. K'daai Destroyer (2 wounds remaining)
Reform Ironsworn 5 wide K'daai Destroyer does 4.9 wounds
10 Ironsworn (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks) 10 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 5's] * [4+ ward save] 10*1/2*1/3*1/2 = 0.8 woundRound 5: 10 Ironsworn vs. K'daai Destroyer (1.2 wounds remaining)
K'daai Destroyer does 4.9 wounds
5 Ironsworn (5 in base contact + 5 supporting attacks) 5 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 5's] * [4+ ward save] 5*1/2*1/3*1/2 = 0.4 woundSo at this point the K'daii is sitting at 0.8 wounds, which means it might already be dead. If not, it should finish the Ironsworn unit. So it's pretty much a coin toss.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 23, 2019 2:34:29 GMT
And now to neutralize the K'daai Destroyer...
Bull Centaur Tau'ruk (235 points) -Blackshard Armour -Great Weapon -Dragonhelm -Dawnstone -The Other Trickster's Shard
Bull Centaur Tau'ruk [235 points] vs. K'daai Destroyer [325 points]
Blazing Body 1 auto-hit at S4: [wounding on 5's] * [2+ armour save] * [2+ armour save re-roll] * [2+ ward save] 1*1/3*1/6*1/6*1/6 = 0.002 wounds = 0 wounds
6 Regular attacks and 2 for frenzy * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 2's] * [5+ armour save] * [5+ armour save re-roll] * [2+ ward save] 8*1/2*5/6*2/3*2/3*1/6 = 0.25 wounds
K'daii Destroyer does 0.25 wounds
Bull Centaur Tau'ruk 4 attacks * [hitting on 4's] * [wounding on 3's] * [re-roll wounds on 3's] * [4+ ward save that must re-roll successful saves]
4*1/2*2/3*2/3*3/4 = 0.67 wounds
And there you have it. During each round of combat the Bull Centaur Tau'ruk is nearly 3 times as likely to land a wound as the Destroyer is. The Tau'ruk should land 2 wounds every 3 rounds of combat while the Destroyer lands about 1 wound every 4 rounds of combat. Furthermore, each time the Tau'ruk lands a wound and the Destroyer does not, the Destroyer loses an extra wound due to its unstable special rule. Also, once it loses a round of combat, it loses its frenzy and its damage output falls to 0.19 wounds per round of combat.
As before, this does not account for a potential fear check failure on the part of the Tau'ruk, but even that should have a negligible effect and is unlikely to occur in the first place. So it is a long drawn out combat, but statistically the Bull Centaur Tau'ruk should get the job done in the long run. Also consider that the Bull Centaur Tau'ruk 90 points less than the destroyer.
This isn't even list building to beat the destroyer, this is my standard Tau'ruk kit. You can play around with the offensive and defensive capabilities by experimenting with various magic item builds. Something like the Sword of Might (+1 S) would make the kit a bit more offensive (because you don't have to re-roll successful wounds), but at the cost of a bit of defense. Obviously the key to the build is the 2+ ward save against flaming attacks and the fact that the Tau'ruk can't be stomped. Together these completely neutralize the Destroyer's offensive capabilities.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 23, 2019 2:52:34 GMT
Kdaii Destroyer vs Ironsworn/Infernal Guard with great weapons challenge! 325 points (323) is only 19 Ironsworn but I suspect that they would still fare better against the Destroyer than 22 Infernal Guard with Great Weapons (330 points) in a hypothetical matchup against the Kdaii Destroyer and show their worth. Of course they are special vs core but lets ignore that for now. The Destroyer ignores their better armor save (3+ vs 4+ as well) Also, due to the fire wardsave I'm thinking they lose their parry save? I'm not sure about it? It comes into play so rarely. Even with these shutdowns to the Ironsworn benefits I'm counting on their better WS and enchanted weaponry making the difference vs the fearsome Destroyer. The Ironsworn will outmatch the GW Infernal Guard both offensively and defensively. S5 magical attacks need 5's to wound against the destroyer, so each hit has a 33% chance of wounding (before the ward save). On the other hand, S6 mundane attacks require 4's to wound, but successful wounds must be re-rolled. That means that each S6 mundane hit has only a 25% chance of wounding (before the ward save). Defensively, the Ironsworn are better for two reasons. Firstly, they have WS5, so the Destroyer hits them on 4's (as opposed to 3's with the GW Infernal Guard). Secondly, while the S7 Destroyer attacks fully negate 3+ and 4+ armour equally, the burning body auto-hit attacks are only S4, so the better armour save of the Ironsworn will make a small difference here. You are correct that the 5+ ward save against the flaming attacks takes precedence over the parry save. The parry save is a ward save and unless otherwise noted (like in the case of the Warriors of Chaos Mark of Tzeentch), ward saves do not stack and you must choose the best one. So the parry save does not play a roll in this match-up.
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