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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 15, 2019 6:27:32 GMT
The idea of these polls is to compare two similar Chaos Dwarf units head to head. The units may be similar in terms of function, unit type, battlefield roll, etc. The objective is to compare the units in terms of game play performance. So try not to include aesthetic, lore/fluff or model preferences in your decision. Simply which of the two units would you most often choose if you were building a competitive list? DREADQUAKE MORTAR VS. HELLCANNONTwo mighty instruments of destruction that drop S5 stone thrower templates on the enemies of the Chaos Dwarfs. Both are rare choices. Both cost approximately the same (Hellcannon is 5 points cheaper once you pick up the Slave Ogre upgrade on the Dreadquake mortar) ShootingIn favor of the DQ mortar: - 12" extra range
- Armour Piercing
- does not suffer from a "stupidity" test (Caged Fury) like the Hellcannon does
- all models in a unit suffering casualties from the DQ in the previous turn must past a Dangerous Terrain test if they wish to move or us move or fire weapons
In favour of the Hellcannon:
- units suffering casualties from Doomfire must pass a panic test with -1 leadership
- can't lose a turn of shooting due to failed panic test
They each have different tables to roll on in case of a misfire, you can judge for yourself which one is more punishing. Remember that when rolling on the Black Powder Misfire chart with the DQ, any roll is reduced by 1.
Survivability
In favor of the DQ mortar:
- Toughness 7 (as opposed to 6)
- 6 wounds via Slave Ogre (as opposed to the Hellcannon's 5)
In favour of the Hellcannon:
- 4+ armour save
- 5+ ward save
- 5+ "handler save" (monsters and handlers)
- Unbreakable monster that can fight in CC
Close Combat
No contest here, the Hellcannon can handle its own in close combat and protect a flank or defend war machines. Traditional war machine hunting units are no match for the Hellcannon. The Hellcannon is a monster (so it gets Thunderstomps) and causes fear. The Hellcannon is also unbreakable!
Vote and discuss!
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 15, 2019 8:43:02 GMT
I like the Hellcannon, its awesome M3 fits perfect with the Chaos Dwarfs  . I also think it fits better in LoA then WoC as they are more defensive and shooting in nature. I have never played dreadquake yet though but they are in my building queue. When I play HC in Woc I always feel like if it doesn't get a direct hit first or second turn I would rather have another unit as it will be far away in the back to be able to come back into the match, here the M3 really hurts. In LoA you can sit still and shoot first turns anyway. |
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Post by Horace on Mar 15, 2019 9:55:55 GMT
I prefer the DQ, it is a more reliable for shooting which is why I would be bringing it. The template is better in terms of S5 AP and also it causes additional damage via Dangerous Terrain tests. It can also slow the enemy advance. I prefer these effects to the Panic @ -1 Ld (which is also pretty decent). The Dangerous Terrain tests are also particularly troublesome/devastating to other War Machines The Hellcannon also has the additional complication of no free pivot (I think, I can't remember where I ended up on that argument ) and having to take pseudo-stupidity tests The Hellcannon is obviously vastly superior if engaged in combat and has some decent utility as a flank denier. You almost want it to be engaged in combat by the time the shooting is dying down a bit which is kind of odd for a war machine - which it isnt  |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 15, 2019 16:02:50 GMT
I agree that the DQ Mortar's Quake! special rule is better in most instances than the Hellcannon's forced panic tests at -1 leadership. First off, Quake is useful in all situations while the Hellcannon's panic tests are not. Not only are there many immune to psychology units in the game, but some armies have it across the board (Daemons, TK, Vampires). Also, valuable units without Immune to Psychology will have excellent leadership, have the general around and a BSB re-roll. Quake! is also exceptional against large deathstar units, because those units have to take a lot more Dangerous Terrain tests. If they choose not to move, even better, as they are effectively out of the game for a turn and the DQ can hit them again next turn.
After having said all that, I still lean towards the Hellcannon. It's shooting attack is almost as good as that of the DQ Mortar but it is also doubles as an unbreakable monster. It is simply more versatile and harder to remove off the board. While the DQ mortar has to be protected, the Hellcannon can actually protect the other war machines. Overall I feel that the Hellcannon's massive advantage in close combat outweighs the DQ's minor advantage in shooting.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 19, 2019 2:17:21 GMT
I vote Earthshaker Cannon (Mortar) simply because it's one of the best pure artillery pieces in the game.
No other army has access to the Earthshaker effect. Things like Screaming Skull catapults can mimic the Hellcannon panic test.
As a dedicated artillery piece the Earthshaker Cannon has the edge which is why I choose it (reasons have been mentioned)
With its -ap the Earthshaker is also quality against large knight units and sometimes I target these over infantry even. A direct hit on a Bretonian 'bus' can hit 9 which is no joke with the Earthshaker effect to boot.
I will say however that the Hellcannon is very good and has very real advantages (reasons have been mentioned) so this is basically a choice of what you want out of the Warmachine. As a 'bodyguard' to your other artillery the Hellcannon is amazing. If you have both you would want to keep your Hellcannon easier to access than the Earthshaker Cannon so that it can fight. Earthshaker Cannon with it's ogre is however not that easy to remove in combat due to its 6 wounds and 6 attacks.
There are time when you would wish you could swap out your Earthshaker Cannon for a Hellcannon and visa versa. Thankfully (which ties into overall army power level) you can fit both into a 2000 point list which in and of itself is a very scary shooting threat for the opponent.
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Post by knoffles on Mar 31, 2019 9:51:34 GMT
I voted for the mortar just because of the anti movement effects. I think that is (for me the deciding factor).
Can a daemonsmith use the reroll of scatter/artillery on the hell cannon? If he can’t, then that seals the deal for me as I’ve seen the hellcannon misfire too many times and be useless for the rest of the game.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 31, 2019 14:51:38 GMT
I voted for the mortar just because of the anti movement effects. I think that is (for me the deciding factor). Can a daemonsmith use the reroll of scatter/artillery on the hell cannon? If he can’t, then that seals the deal for me as I’ve seen the hellcannon misfire too many times and be useless for the rest of the game. The anti-movement effect of the Dreadquake is delicious. If it didn't have that rule, the Hellcannon would easily win hands down. The Daemonsmith re-roll does apply to the hellcannon, it was addressed in the FAQ: Q. Does the Hellcannon benefit from the Daemonsmith's re-rolls?
A. Yes, as long as they are selected as part of a Legion of Azgorh army. |
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on May 13, 2019 18:18:28 GMT
I voted for the mortar just because of the anti movement effects. I think that is (for me the deciding factor). Can a daemonsmith use the reroll of scatter/artillery on the hell cannon? If he can’t, then that seals the deal for me as I’ve seen the hellcannon misfire too many times and be useless for the rest of the game. Umm...useless?? It's still a T6 unbreakable monster after it's lost its cannon. Move it forward and tie up the enemy flank! I voted Hellcannon. For the simple reason that it can single-handedly anchor a flank, opponent will need serious resources in order to take care of it, and even if it can't shoot it's weapon, it's a T6 unbreakable monster on top of that. Also...the Hellcannon is a S5 template. Those are rare enough that they deserve mention. Unsure if the dreadquake is as well as I've never seen one fielded on the table. EDIT: a different post also had me think of this as another pro for the hellcannon: being only T6 instead of T7 it's immune to the screaming bell effect that inflicts wounds on anything with a T7 or more. It's a niche case for sure but...you never know. |
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Post by knoffles on May 13, 2019 20:40:36 GMT
Useless may have been a strong word. It’s just I’ve faced hellcannons in most of the warriors armies I’ve come across and they never seem to do anything particularly useful. I can see the potential but reality never seems to match that. Maybe I’ve just been lucky (or my opponents not). I appreciate that we are talking about chaos dwarves not warriors and I can’t remember if they are noticeably different between the two armies.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 13, 2019 21:30:03 GMT
I appreciate that we are talking about chaos dwarves not warriors and I can’t remember if they are noticeably different between the two armies. The hellcannon's are exactly the same between the two armies, however Chaos Dwarfs can field a Daemonsmith or Sorcerer-Prophet which allows you to reroll one of the dice (scatter or artillery). So the potential of the Hellcannon in a Chaos Dwarf army is much better. |
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Post by mrbaldrick on Oct 27, 2019 17:08:36 GMT
I prefer the Dreadquake. I like the Dangerous Terrain test over the Panic check.
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Post by bergkamp on May 16, 2021 12:57:52 GMT
Im always choose Hellcannon because, deploying the warmachines in the right corner and put a hellcannon on the left, so you don't have to be on the lookout for light cavarly coming from side to side
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 25, 2021 5:10:18 GMT
I must say that I am extremely surprised to see the Dreadquake ahead of the Hellcannon in the poll. I agree that the Dreadquake mortar is slightly better in terms of its shooting, but not nearly by enough of a margin to offset the fact that the Hellcannon is also an unbreakable monster.
The Hellcannon can not only defend itself against warmachine hunters, but it can also defend some of your other warmachines or the flank of your combat blocks.
That's just how I see it, I guess I am in the minority.
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Post by strutsagget on May 25, 2021 6:32:24 GMT
I must say that I am extremely surprised to see the Dreadquake ahead of the Hellcannon in the poll. I agree that the Dreadquake mortar is slightly better in terms of its shooting, but not nearly by enough of a margin to offset the fact that the Hellcannon is also an unbreakable monster. The Hellcannon can not only defend itself against warmachine hunters, but it can also defend some of your other warmachines or the flank of your combat blocks. That's just how I see it, I guess I am in the minority. I am in the same boat but have not tested the upgraded ogre dreadquake yet. Lets see how it goes. Will soon go back and finish painting 2 of each. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 26, 2021 4:17:20 GMT
I must say that I am extremely surprised to see the Dreadquake ahead of the Hellcannon in the poll. I agree that the Dreadquake mortar is slightly better in terms of its shooting, but not nearly by enough of a margin to offset the fact that the Hellcannon is also an unbreakable monster. The Hellcannon can not only defend itself against warmachine hunters, but it can also defend some of your other warmachines or the flank of your combat blocks. That's just how I see it, I guess I am in the minority. I am in the same boat but have not tested the upgraded ogre dreadquake yet. Lets see how it goes. Will soon go back and finish painting 2 of each. The Ogre upgrade is an absolute necessity. The Dreadquake is a terribly overpriced/under-performing piece of artillery without it. Simply too unreliable, and the Ogre upgrade is so cheap. Much more reliable shooting, more wounds and a better counterattack against opposing warmachine hunters. |
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. I also think it fits better in LoA then WoC as they are more defensive and shooting in nature. I have never played dreadquake yet though but they are in my building queue.
