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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 5:52:21 GMT
Just a fun thread to discuss the most powerful magic user in WFB according to lore/fluff. The "rules": - No End Times Stuff
- No AoS stuff
 - Disregard how good the character's rules were (only fluff / lore matters)
- No Gods (Tzeentch, etc.)
- Consider each character at the height of their power (i.e. living Kroak, etc.)
- Consider each character only in terms of their ability to wield magic (and not other factors such as the ability to fight hand to hand, etc.)
- Only consider the characters themselves (disregard any allies who might help each of them)
- Any magic items or similar are fair game as long as they are a part of the character's lore (Nagash's Black Pyramid, Geomantic web, etc.)
Vote and discuss!! |
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Post by sedge on May 9, 2019 9:34:56 GMT
You know you'll need another thread for in-game strongest magic user?  It's a toss-up between Lord Kroak and Nagash for me, and I've only voted for Nagash of those two because I like him so much. He essentially invented a new form of magic, made himself effectively immortal, and led to the creation of two warhammer races. It's hard to "disregard any allies who might help" because his undead minions are an integral part of his magic. The elves/other humans/undead have nothing on those two, Mazdamundi is a clear level below Kroak, Be'lakor did kind of have his own magic lore at one point but was more about trickery and plots than pure magical power. Kairos is the only one who comes close. |
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 9, 2019 10:02:22 GMT
I'd rank them all as:
Kroak - Able to nuke an entire Daemon army with one spell
Kairos - Able to twist the very strands of fate to work in his favour
Mazdamundi - Although he's not a patch on Kroak, Mazdamundi is the strongest living Slann
Caledor - Brought about the alliance between the High Elves and Dwarfs, fought side by side with Grimnir himself and one of the first Dragonlords
Nagash - Remember, End Times stuff doesn't count, so Nagash is still dead after being assassinated by Skaven and isn't his massive skeletal Pope self
Be'Lakor - Daemon Princes are always powerful
Teclis - Just as Mazdamundi is one of the strongest living Slann, Teclis is one of the strongest living High Elf mages - his physical weakness belies his magical strength
Morathi - Highly skilled in the Dark Arts, but I wouldn't say as powerful as Teclis
Arkhan - Nagash's foremost Nehekharan pupil, Arkhan is one of the greatest living Necromancers
Malekith - Malekith was more of a fighter as far as I can see - although still a potent sorcerer, he hasn't devoted his whole life to studying magic like Morathi or Teclis
Alarielle - The Everqueen has a lot of life magic in her, but she is not nearly as able to cast truly destructive magic like those above her
Mannfred - He has some sneaky Vampire tricks up his sleeve, but as with Malekith, he hasn't devoted himself fully to the study of magic.
Balthasar - He may be the most gifted spellcaster in the Empire, but he is a mere acolyte compared to any of the above. Regular humans just aren't strong with magic - not nearly as strong as Elves or Slann, and I would say even Mannfred and Malekith could beat him pretty easily.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 9, 2019 10:32:37 GMT
I think Kroak definitely is the most powerful. He was the most powerful Slann and was taught by the Old Ones themselves. When Itza was besieged he detonated the surrounding energy shield, which had been created by him, killing over a hundred thousand daemons in an instant, and then when he unleashed his Deliverance spell it is described as being so powerful that he was likened to a god, time stopped, and the fabric of reality was stretched. It took a full dozen Bloodthirsters to kill him and even then the mad frog refused to stop going and annihilated several million daemons including the 12 Bloodthirsters that had killed him. If that's not the most powerful mage in Warhammer, I don't know what is. As for Kroak vs Nagash, the simplest thing I can say is this: death stopped Nagash. It didn't stop Kroak.
I'd say second most powerful is a close fight between Nagash and Caledor Dragontamer. Nagash's successes are well known, he definitely invented a lore of magic and killed every living thing in Nehekhara with an immensely powerful spell. However, Caledor Dragontamer forged arguably the most powerful suit of armor in Warhammer and far more importantly conceived and executed the Great Vortex that saved the world from Chaos. This spell trapped him inside it for all of time and yet despite that he still fights for the High Elves. When Malekith and friends tried to undo the Vortex, Caledor Dragontamer hit back with such devastating force that the entire continent of Ulthuan was devastated by earthquakes and most of Tiranoc and Nagarythe sunk under the waves. Caledor has also manipulated fate for the past 8000 years to get people and things where they need to be, and the simple threat of his vengeance was enough to convince Morathi (one of the craziest and most psycho people in Warhammer) to back down and retreat.
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Post by sedge on May 9, 2019 11:39:55 GMT
Nagash wasn't defeated by death though - he still existed even if not in physical form (not too dissimilar from Kroak), influenced goings on, and was able to come back. If you do count the End Times, Nagash devoured Usirian and became effectively a god himself. I'm not going to dispute Kroak's prowess though. Caledor Dragontamer needed help to cast and sustain the vortex, whereas Nagash's castings were always his own work. Also, was the Sundering all Caledor - I thought it was the failed Dark Elf attempt to unbind the Vortex backfiring? Yes, that's partly Caledor's doing, but the amount of power needed to sink Nagarythe came from Morathi and co. I'd agree that Caledor was top of the Elven magic users, though I don't think there was much doubt there. Nagash - Remember, End Times stuff doesn't count, so Nagash is still dead after being assassinated by Skaven and isn't his massive skeletal Pope self True, but then Kroak is just a spirit capable of a single spell. I think you need to judge them at their peak, and their continued influence, rather than just current state. |
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 9, 2019 12:27:12 GMT
Nagash wasn't defeated by death though - he still existed even if not in physical form (not too dissimilar from Kroak), influenced goings on, and was able to come back. If you do count the End Times, Nagash devoured Usirian and became effectively a god himself. I'm not going to dispute Kroak's prowess though. Caledor Dragontamer needed help to cast and sustain the vortex, whereas Nagash's castings were always his own work. Also, was the Sundering all Caledor - I thought it was the failed Dark Elf attempt to unbind the Vortex backfiring? Yes, that's partly Caledor's doing, but the amount of power needed to sink Nagarythe came from Morathi and co. I'd agree that Caledor was top of the Elven magic users, though I don't think there was much doubt there. Nagash - Remember, End Times stuff doesn't count, so Nagash is still dead after being assassinated by Skaven and isn't his massive skeletal Pope self True, but then Kroak is just a spirit capable of a single spell. I think you need to judge them at their peak, and their continued influence, rather than just current state. The difference is, though, that the rules of this poll disallow End Times content, so no super-Nagash, while Kroak's younger self capable of destroying entire armies had always existed in Lizardmen lore before GW decided to work on the End Times campaign, so young Kroak would still be allowed. NIGHTBRINGER could you please clarify this conflict in the poll rules? |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 9, 2019 12:27:37 GMT
Very true, Nagash did still exist and did come back for a brief time twice, I more meant stopped from completing his goal. Nagash's spell and power ended for several thousand years the moment his head was cut off, and he's never returned to that same power (excepting End Times). Kroak's spell arguably got stronger once he died as he was no longer limited by his mortal form.
That's also true about Caledor, he did require a team of Archmages to enact the ritual, but it still a cosmically powerful spell to cast especially with all four Chaos Gods united in trying to stop you from doing it. As for the Sundering you are correct, but so am I! It was both at the same time. The Dark Elves lead by Morathi and Malekith created a massive surge of power meant to undo the vortex and this surge broke through all the High Elf defenses, but the moment that it reached the Vortex, Caledor entered the fight and sent that wave of power hurtling back to Nagarythe and Tiranoc. In the Sundering book series Caledor is quoted as coming out of the Vortex as the Dark Elf wave of magic hits it and saying something along the lines of "this cannot be allowed" and he sends the wave of energy back.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 15:12:13 GMT
The difference is, though, that the rules of this poll disallow End Times content, so no super-Nagash, while Kroak's younger self capable of destroying entire armies had always existed in Lizardmen lore before GW decided to work on the End Times campaign, so young Kroak would still be allowed. NIGHTBRINGER could you please clarify this conflict in the poll rules? For each magic user you pick them at their strongest point prior to the End Times. The End Times stuff got pretty ridiculous with incarnates and gods. It felt quite rushed to me and the idea was to focus on the classic WFB lore that we all know and love. Kroak's spell arguably got stronger once he died as he was no longer limited by his mortal form. I disagree, living Kroak was immensely more powerful. Page 58 of the Lizardmen 8th edition army book reads: "Some vestige of power resides in him still, a distant echo of former glory, yet strength enough to unleash destruction upon his enemies." |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 9, 2019 16:21:54 GMT
I don't mean the current mummified Kroak. I mean when "Set free of his flesh, Kroak's radiant will soared above the ruins, scourging the invaders with a divine light that was like unto a second son." The Kroak that had just been killed while casting his Deliverance spell I would argue is stronger than the living Kroak, considering that the Bloodthirsters made it through the deluge of firepower that the living Kroak was casting, but the recently deceased Kroak annihilated all Daemons within the entirety of Itza.
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Post by DiscoQing on May 9, 2019 17:57:23 GMT
Fay Enchantress?
Lol
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 9, 2019 20:15:52 GMT
Thanquol?
(Even with the old cyborg Boneripper and his near-constant mistakes, Thanquol was still a Grey Seer, one of the strongest of all Skavenkind in the magical arts)
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Post by TheGreatHornedRat on May 9, 2019 20:28:40 GMT
As much as I would love it to be Thanquol I don't think he'd survive a one-on-one with Kroak or Nagash. Although Skaven cunning has to account for something there!
I'm torn between Nagash and Kroak. Nagash in his Black Pyramid during his heyday had world-shattering power. His mega-spell to kill all life and turn the world into an Undead kingdom ruled by him would have succeeded if not for the Skaven (yay!).
But on the other hand...Kroak is...Kroak. I have to imagine that if the Skaven hadn't intervened against Nagash the Lizardmen would have done something.
In the end I voted for Nagash as he's been more of an influence on history.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 20:58:17 GMT
Thanquol? (Even with the old cyborg Boneripper and his near-constant mistakes, Thanquol was still a Grey Seer, one of the strongest of all Skavenkind in the magical arts) He is a fun character, but I don't he can come anywhere close to the top casters on the list. In the novel Temple of the Serpent, it is pretty clear that Thanquol is no match for a Slann (let alone Kroak). When he sees the Slann's magical aura from a distance, he gets out of dodge real fast (in true Skaven fashion)!! |
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kroak
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by kroak on May 9, 2019 22:36:22 GMT
That could only be...
...me!
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 9, 2019 23:28:28 GMT
That could only be... ...me! AWESOME!!  |
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