I am opening this thread to share with you my thoughts and experiences . I fronted Daemons army before the last army book was published and that time they were considered to be a top tier.
With the new book things changed. A lot of things were nerfed but something interesting was added .
I didn't owe any DoC miniatures until that time ...but then, the idea to start collection daemons sprung to my mind .
Here I am tarting the thread talking about Tzeentch. yes Tzeentch.... because I have the ambitious plan to find out a way to field a mono tzeentch Army :-) which can be if not competitive, at least, decent against almost all others armies.
Will I succeed?...
will someone be interested in it?
Ehehehe hard to say.... but even if one of you appreciates my job I consider it worth to do.
Tzeentch daemons (have 5+ ward save as all daemons ) - re-roll a ward save results of 1 - Each wizard can re-roll a channeling result of 1 - ( Hatred Daemons of Nurgle)
I am not going to do warhammer math here. I can only say that reroll a 1 ward save it's not like a 4++ .... this is obvious....but what if I say that, more than once, my 500 points Lord and/or my soul grinder targetted by cannons were saved by this “fluffy “rule? Not a game changer but a nice defensive bonus.
Warpflame: A fair number of Tzeentch attacks have this special rule. Any unit taking wounds from a Warpflame attack has to take Toughness test. If they fail they take d3 additional wounds with no armor save. If they pass they get Regeneration 6+ or a boost to existing Regeneration. That means the utility of Warpflame attacks goes down when fighting high toughness targets and goes up when fighting low toughness targets. Lizardmen are oddities in that we have lots of both kinds of targets. Tzeentch daemons are designed for shining in the magic phase.
Here I show you list of wizards we can choose in a mono Tzeentch army: Kairos Lord of change Prince Daemons ( marked Tzeentch ) Changeling Herald Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (core unit which counts as a wizard) they all can cast spells from the Lore of Tzeentch.
LORE OF TZEENTCH
It's mostly direct damage and mostly random strength direct damage. All the damage spells have warpflame.
Blue Fire of Tzeentch: The signature spell is a magic missile that inflicts d6 Strength d6 hits at a 24 inch or 48-inch range.
Treason of Tzeentch: The only Hex on the list. The target is not allowed to use the general’s inspiring presence or the BSB’s re-roll. Situational, but highly useful in some situations.
Pink Fire of Tzeentch: Shoots the flame template with an artillery die similar to a Salamander (though a misfire is treated as a 0). Models hit by the template take a Strength d6 hit.
Bolt of Change: Magic missile hits targets like a bolt thrower at 24 inches inflicting Strength +4 damage as the base.
Glean Magic: An unorthodox direct damage spell. In the old book this let a Tzeentch daemon borrow an enemy spell. This steals it removing it from the target’s ability to cast but the daemon has to win a contested roll against the target, d6 + level for both parties. If the defender wins nothing happens. If they lose, they lose a randomly chosen spell for the rest of the game and the daemon can cast it from then on for the rest of the game using the Tzeentch attribute in place of the normal attribute. To add injury to insult, the wizard takes a S3 hit in the process if they lose.
Tzeentch’s Firestorm: A scattering template is placed up to 30 inches from the caster inflicting Strength d6 hits to targets touched by the template. As usual for templates there is a double scattering large template option. Surprisingly the augmented version is only slightly more difficult to cast.
Infernal Gateway: Direct damage spell inflicts 2d6 Strength 2d6 hits on a target. If an 11 or 12 is rolled, the damage is capped at 10 strength, but the number of hits is boosted to 3d6 hits
Kairos Fateweaver: 565 pts. He's a level 4 wizard that knows several spells that you may CHOOSE, not roll for before the game begins. You get -4 from Life, Metal, Light and Heavens; -4 from Death, Beasts, Shadow and fire; - all spells from Lore of Tzeentch. The only problem is you have to choose each turn which set you're using, though you always have Tzeentch. His stat line is awful so no Melee for him !!! He has a fantastic 4+ ward save (coupled with a spell or two from the Lore of Life, this can make him extremely hard to kill) He also can reroll any single d6 roll once per turn.
Lords of Change: They have a minimum wizard level of two. They have 5 attacks instead of the usual 6 greater daemons get. They have 6s in pretty much all the other stats . They can choose between lore of Tzeentch and Lore of Metal Lore of metal is a great lore because we have already several pink horrors units casting Tzeentch spells. Anyway, some prefer to have him casting Tzeentch spells . The reason is that he can be also bea 4 lv caster and we can manage better to cast cheap spells from our lore. Anyway keep in mind that if he is fighting we won't cast more that much with him.
Daemon Princes: A good value for the points. Only slightly less potent than a greater daemon and noticeably cheaper. They are also extremely customizable. They can fall anywhere between 0 and 4 for wizard levels. They can buy Flight as upgrade (with Movement 8, Flight seems overpriced at 40 points). They can also buy Chaos Armor for 20 points. A Bargain since this provides a good armor save to a list that generally has poor armor saves. We have to choose Daemonic alignment of Tzeentch for having him in our mono Tzeentch army.
Tzeentch's Heralds starts out as level one Wizards and may be upgraded to level two (making them the only non-Lord way to get level twos). He can provide a buff to Pink Horror units. - The lesser locus boosts the number of Blue Horror tokens per Pink Horror death from 2 to d3+1 making Pink Horrors literally worth more dead than alive. - The greater locus swaps the units strength for a d6 roll each turn. While this can make their strength go down, there is little mechanical difference between Strength 1 and Strength 3 and a big difference between Strength 3 and Strength 4 (to say nothing of 5 and 6). -The exalted locus boosts the strength of the Herald’s spells (and the other wizards in his unit) by +1. Seems like a weak buff on the surface but six out of seven of the lore of Tzeentch spells to inflict damage.
The Blue Scribes are two beings that act as one model on a Disc of Tzeentch. They have some weird abilities. Surprisingly the Scribes are not a wizard. They get a token for every spell cast during the enemy magic phase. During their own magic phase they lose the tokens and roll one channeling die per token discarded. During their own magic phase, the player can choose a Lore and the Scribes can cast a randomly rolled spell from that lore as a bound spell at regular difficulty (never the signature spell).
The Changeling is a Tzeentch model that can fight halfway decent. The Changeling can boost its WS, Strength, or Toughness, Initiative, and Attacks scores to the same level of any enemy target in base to base contact if it’s higher than his own. The Changeling provides the lesser Locus to a Pink Horror unit it joins. It’s also a level one lore of Tzeentch wizard.
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch: 90 points interesting hero. He has 2 flavours, it can either elect to fire as a fire thrower with a S of D6(pink fire), or fire as a cannon grapeshot with a range of 12" BS4 and a S of D6+3(blue fire).
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch: A unit of Pink Horrors is a level 1 wizard that takes its one spell from the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch. If they miscast they don't roll on the miscast table but take wounds instead. As a mono Tzeentch theme army we have only this as core unit.
Minimum unit size is 10 and this unit is a considered a wizard but the only lore they can take is Tzeentch lore ( or undead if we play that end of times rules)
In a 2400 points list we have to field 600 points of them(minimum core requirement) here the first question occurred. How can we use them at best?
A) FIRST Approach can be use them as a magic battery.
In this case, we need to go for the minimum size Unit so for instance, 4 Units with Music and the stendard bearer will cost you 600 points at the dot, ( 4 x 150 points )
- MSU units are better to maneuver - Points denial . In case we spread them on the battlefield opponent has less juicy target and once he got them ...it's 150 points unit. We can maximize the channeling. If we split our forces into little groups we can attempt to channel with 4 additional dices ( re-rolling 1s). Considering we will have other wizards it means having on average 6 -7 channeling dices with 1' re-rollable. With a little bit of luck, we will get 1 or 2 additional dices for casting
-We can spam the blue fire of Tzeentch. This is useful to kill chaff unit or weaken knights Units -Having more units means we can have all Tzeentch spells and almost always we can have "gateway" on one unit. Using six dices on gateway without fear of a miscast is a great thing.
-We don't have a huge block of infantry with steadfast which can be able to keep the fight or even win it with some buffs -Lore attribute on a huge block of horrors can increase their size and make them more “reliable”. -From each additional rank, we get a +1 bonus in casting and if we use small unit we will not take advantage properly of this rule
B) The SECOND way to go 1 unit 15 men unit with full command and banner of flame 3 x 10 men Units music and standard bearer
we should try to have gateway on the 15 men unit in order to have the bonus from ranks in casting it
PRO -all the pro explained above!!! - casting with an additional bonus given by the additional ranks - Chance, thanks to the lore attribute to increasing the 15 men unit size thanks to the lore ( having a 20+ horrors block is not that bad, always if we support them somehow) -Chance to have a “fighty “ infantry Unit to support with magic. - Possibility to add a Herald with a loci to make the unit more efficient
-less points to invest in Special ..Rare and Lords slots
C ) The THIRD way to go 20men unit with herald with loci , changeling + banner of eternal flame ( against the regen we spread before melee) 15 men unit 10 men unit
we should deploy the 20 men and 15 men unit next to each other and then casting (with 20 unit ) and adding horror to the next 15 men horrors In case opponent shoots on 20 units horrors before entering in melee we can move characters to the next unit (15 + horrors we added ) and so playing in melee our tricks ... In case opponents don't shoot on our 20 horrors unit then it's preferable to increase the number of this unit to make it more “effective in combat”( for instance 30 horrors are not that bad) Here we go for a sort of fighting approach. Changeling here is a must He is able to keep busy in fight the Opponent General ..BSB or lord and can be anyway really dangerous. Also a herald is a must with a loci we can go for Loci of conjuration ( +1 S to each spells ) this bonus will be given to 3/ 4 spells ( 1 from 20 men unit + 1 spell from Changeling + 1/ 2 spell form herald depending on his level) In this way the randomness strength of Tzeentch lore is more than mitigated.
Alternatively, We can go for Loci of change ( D6 Strenght to the unit in melee) this is a gamble. On 1 -2 we are nerfed on 3 nothing will change 4 is slightly better 5-6 will be really good. Using Kairos can be a tricky solution because we can reroll this dice!!!! BUT Our initiative is 3 and often opponent can strike before us and target our Herald. He has only 2 wounds and we cannot protect him efficiently. So once he is gone we will lose 160 points and the bonus we were so proud of.
PRO -if we opt for loci of conjuration we can be dangerous in the magic phase 2 units can keep the enemy in the fight for a while (and win also in case we front not so strong unit and our plan is working) - in fight, we can deal with regen ( thanks to the banner )
CONS - horrors are not designed for fighting !!! - Huge points investment - less points for Lord special and rare slots
Flamers of Tzeentch: 40 points per each .minimum 3 x unit .( 120 points) Flamers are our tzeentchy shooters Not that great, unfortunately. They have T4 , short range of 18" and the "multiple shots(D6) with warpflame rule :-( they move 6 " and they are skirmishers. BS 4 ......They will hit often on 6 ( -1 multipleshots -1 long range - 1 movement )
Screamers of Tzeentch: fly unit. They have three attacks apiece at S4 inflicting d3 wounds on Large Targets. They can fly through a unit to inflict d3 S4 hits with this off-phase shooting casualties per Screamer during the movement phase .
RARE Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: The Burning Chariots can shoot Pink or Blue Fire (the player chooses each phase). Pink Fire is a Slow to Fire fire thrower out of the BRB inflicting a Strength d6 hit. Blue Fire works like grapeshot inflicting a d6+3 Strength hit. Both shooting attacks have Warpflame. Burning Chariots can be upgraded to have Blue Horrors which inflict a -1 Ld penalty on enemies within six inches.
After this analysis of our Unit, I will talk about some possible 2400 points list. Before I start to talk about this I would like to say that here I won't talk about army lists with Nurgle Beasts, 2 cannons... plague drones and so on. I don't see the point of doing it. You know already that they are our best Units and suggesting to play them sounds to me pretty obvious. I wish to describe, instead, a funny way to use this army without renouncing to win our games.
A mono Tzeentch army is exactly the best way to play a fluffy army but with a little bit of help and tactical tricks we can surprise our opponent while is laughing on us asking where is our real army....:-) Mono Tzeentch army is really an uphill struggle but If you win against a strong army and strong opponent the satisfaction will be huge.