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Post by knoffles on Nov 13, 2019 18:58:38 GMT
Gents, Can I get the hive mind to chime in with my reading of some rules (to also help mrpancakes) after our chat on FB following the latest Elector Counts Megasode. It was mainly on Beastmen (but also covered such important topics such as @imrillions pencil impaler) so I very much recommend listening to it. The question is: Does Primal fury affect all the models on a beastmen chariot (specifically the beasts pulling it). The Beastmen Primal Fury rule states: At the beginning of each round of close combat, each engaged unit with the primal fury special rule must take a leadership test. If the test is passed, that unit is subject to hatred of all units they are fighting until the end of the close combat round.The Tuskgor/Razorgor chariots give their special rules as: Chariot, Primal Fury The equipment listed under the chariots each state who wields it (such as a great weapon - Bestigor only etc.) and this is normally the theme in most army books. If only one part gets a rule, it says rider only etc. As an example, the Razorgor Chariot does have two additional special rules: Fear, Thunderous charge (the latter does appear under the 'generic special rules entry but in the unit entry is states that the +1 Strength only affects the Razorgor). Now pg 86 of the BRB does have a section called Chariots and Special Rules, that states that: Just with Cavalry, we assume that special rules that apply to mounts do not normally apply to the chariot or crew and visa versa.However the Primal Fury rule is listed on the model and the rule just states 'each unit', so I'd argue that they all get the rule. Am I reading this correctly? Cheers Mark
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Nov 14, 2019 1:50:10 GMT
The entire model being affected is the general consensus I've seen played.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 14, 2019 2:53:19 GMT
Beastmen get this little nugget of a special rule for their chariots. It's the least the writers could do by ruining the rest of the book.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 14, 2019 11:17:07 GMT
I can't say that I've ever encountered this before, but I tend to lean on the side of "yes, they do". Call it a "perk" of the Beastmen army and makes thematic sense anyway. (Everyone knows I tend to lean on the RAI side. 😁)
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Post by mrpancakes on Nov 14, 2019 13:54:44 GMT
I'd love for the mounts to have primal fury as well, the only thing holding me back is the regular razorgor units don't get it. Please guys, help me
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 14, 2019 15:34:01 GMT
Rulseswise, knoffles e.a. is correct. Primal Fury is a special rule that applies to the Tuskgor/Razorgor chariot as a unit, and thus to every element in that unit - unless of course specified otherwise. If it is not specified as such by the rule itself (which it is not), it can and is done by adding in the unit description "X only," as for instance in the case of the Orc Boar Chariot, which has the special rules "Choppas (Orc crew only)" and "Tusker Charge (War Boars only)." Since it is not specified otherwise, Primal Fury applies to all elements of the chariots. It may well be that the 8th edition Beastmen AB would have changed this, but we'll never know.
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Post by knoffles on Nov 14, 2019 18:29:14 GMT
Cheers Gents. There you go mrpancakes, extra oomph for your chariots going forward. 😁
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 17, 2019 22:29:29 GMT
The horses on WoC Khorne chariots do not get frenzy (+1A) as is mentioned in the FAQ.
For those that were deeply worried about this.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 17, 2019 23:13:20 GMT
To be precise, it is an Erratum, which adds to the Mark of Khorne Army Special Rule : "In the case of models with the cavalry, monstrous cavalry, chariot or monster unit type, only the rider has the Extra Attack special rule."
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Nov 18, 2019 19:52:55 GMT
razorgor with re rolls to hit is so satisfying, weapon skill 3 is a drag.
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Post by imrillion on May 29, 2020 10:09:56 GMT
I can say 100% that they do get it... I saw it happen last weekend to an ogre bus.. the razgor got rerolls n killed his butcher.... ‘‘twas beautiful
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Post by anechrome on Feb 9, 2021 23:00:24 GMT
I'm sure you're right, but devils advocate here; Is there any other beast in the game that has hatred? I somehow get the feeling that perhaps animals don't hate stuff? Frenzy sure, but hate...?
Also, compare to the wolves on the goblin wolf chariot - do they fear elves?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 9, 2021 23:29:49 GMT
The rules on this flip-flopped between editions. For instance, in the 7th edition, Hatred was specifically stated as affecting both rider and mount. The 8th edition BRB/Update Version is actually silent on this.
The rules regarding Cavalry (BRB p. 82)state "Unless otherwise noted, special rules that apply to the mount do not normally also apply to the rider, and vice versa."
It is true that Hatred is not stated as an exception, but that is not issue here. Any special rule that affects a unit as such (rather than either rider or mount) affects all parts of that unit, unless specifically stated otherwise. So, unless stated otherwise (like, unfortunately, the Empire's Update Version specifies for the WP's Righteous Fury), any special rule bestowing Hatred to a unit will affect both rider and mount.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 9, 2021 23:37:18 GMT
So, to answer your question regarding the Goblin Wolf Chariot: yes, since the "Fear Elves" special rule applies to the whole unit (without exemption), it applies to both rider and mount.
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Post by anechrome on Feb 9, 2021 23:51:45 GMT
Again, I'm pretty sure you are right about this although it seems very weird. Compare with a goblin character mounted on a wolf. The wolf doesn't have the special rule Fear elves (AB p. 100) so is not effected even if his rider is. Strap the same wolf in front of a chariot and suddenly it cares about what it's handlers fear? This doesn't smell right...
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