Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity

1plussave
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 20:08:08 GMT knoffles and gregr like this

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Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 20:08:08 GMT

Just a pair of Empire lists I've been thinking about since my list of trying all the chariots (except the Steam Tank, perhaps THAT is where my failure lies?) didn't pan out super well, I've come up with 2 Empire lists that theoretically take advantage of synergy between units and bonuses but most likely are just more dumb ideas.

The First is my Beasty Boys list: A Wizard Lord cosplaying as a combat character and a Witch ~~Hydra~~Hunter along with a few blocks of buff hungry troops and characters.

The goal obviously is to try to force Transformation of Kadon onto the Witch Hunters ring (for an act of desperation or hilarity, either works) and have my Lord and Level 2 threaten to buff some fast moving units to great effect, the Hurricanum and Arch Lector are self-explanatory. Ideally with a lot of S5 and potential S6 where I need it I can get my units out of bad situations with any of a number of cheap spells (2 Wildforms, Savage Beast Characters and Battle Prayers on blobs) or send in a high strength troubleshooter unit to even the odds.

+ Lords +
Arch Lector [304pts]: Heavy Armour
. Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation
. War Altar of Sigmar: AB - The Golden Griffon

Battle Wizard Lord [309pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 4
. Magic Items: AB - The White Cloak of Ulric, BRB - Fencer's Blades
. Warhorse: Barding

+ Heroes +
Battle Wizard [125pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 2
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll

Captain of the Empire [143pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard

Captain of the Empire [180pts]: Full Plate Armour, Lance, Shield
. Imperial Pegasus: Swift as the Wind
. Magic Items: AB - Helm of the Skavenslayer, BRB - Potion of Foolhardiness, BRB - Talisman of Endurance

Witch Hunter [85pts]: Brace of Pistols
. Magic Items: AB - Ring of Volans

+ Core +
Halberdiers [293pts]: Champion, 38x Halberdiers, Musician, Standard Bearer
. Archers: 5x Archers

Knightly Orders Inner Circle [380pts]: Champion, 14x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer

+ Special +
Demigryph Knights [174pts]: 3x Inner Circle Knight, Lance

Greatswords [272pts]: Champion, 22x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer

Outriders [105pts]: 5x Outriders

+ Rare +
Celestial Hurricanum [130pts]

The second List combines the Emperors Leadership 10 with the lore of Death to try and have fun with Spirit Leech, the Emperor rocks around in a knightbus with Huss and threatens to kill anything with his magic warhammer that Huss can't kill with his massive warhammer (and roid rage), one of the Lore of Deaths Weaknesses is the hit and miss nature of its signature spell depending on your wizards leadership, but with the FAQ generals Leadership it should be useful against some of the armies who are stuck with 8s and can even with those pesky Elf and Dwarf 10s. I can even see it being useful for ganking champions so the Emperor and Huss can force other characters to fight a challenge or flee to the rear.

The big downside is that the Level 4 Ideally sits in the second rank of the Emperors party bus and therefore has 3 choices: never cast Purple Sun, stack to the opposite corner of the Big E and Luthor and 50/50 a knight or 2 every time, or finally; sit on one corner and cast it straight through the Emperor and risk killing his boss on a 6.

+ Lords +
Battle Wizard Lord [223pts]: Lore of Death, Wizard Level 4
. Magic Items: BRB - Ironcurse Icon
. Warhorse

Karl Franz, The Emperor [394pts]: AB - Ghal Maraz, AB - The Silver Seal
. Warhorse: Barding

+ Heroes +
Battle Wizard [106pts]: Lore of Death, Wizard Level 1
. Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll
. Warhorse: Barding

Captain of the Empire [166pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Lance, Shield
. Magic Items: AB - The White Cloak of Ulric
. Warhorse: Barding

Captain of the Empire [178pts]: Full Plate Armour, Lance
. Imperial Pegasus: Swift as the Wind
. Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation

Luthor Huss, Prophet of Sigmar [155pts]

Warrior Priest [130pts]: Heavy Armour, Shield
. Magic Items: AB - Helm of the Skavenslayer, BRB - Talisman of Endurance
. Warhorse: Barding

+ Core +
Knightly Orders [184pts]: Champion, Great Weapon, 7x Knightly Orders, Musician, Standard Bearer

Knightly Orders [110pts]: Great Weapon, 5x Knightly Orders

Knightly Orders Inner Circle [340pts]: 12x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield
. Champion
. Musician
. Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Eternal Flame

+ Special +
Demigryph Knights [174pts]: 3x Inner Circle Knight, Lance

Outriders [105pts]: 5x Outriders

Outriders [105pts]: 5x Outriders

+ Rare +
Celestial Hurricanum [130pts]

gregr
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 21:36:27 GMT via mobile knoffles likes this

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Post by gregr on Jan 20, 2020 21:36:27 GMT

I like these lists! List 1. Could you put something like VHS on the level 4 wizard?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. If you put the arches with the greatswords instead of the halberdiers, don't they benefit from Stubborn?

gregr God Posts: 513	Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 21:37:06 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by gregr on Jan 20, 2020 21:37:06 GMT Also with the Outriders in list 2, can you cut points to spend on musicians to rally them if they flee charges etc?

1plussave
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Posts: 162

Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 21:59:14 GMT

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Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 21:59:14 GMT

Jan 20, 2020 21:37:06 GMT gregr said:

Also with the Outriders in list 2, can you cut points to spend on musicians to rally them if they flee charges etc?

18" Leadership 10 and a small list makes those musicians kind of redundant =P

The list is also fairly tight on points. 20 points of musicians would remove something else, so I'm happy with keeping them close to the Big Es unit and taking advantage of that.

Jan 20, 2020 21:36:27 GMT gregr said:

I like these lists! List 1. Could you put something like VHS on the level 4 wizard?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong. If you put the arches with the greatswords instead of the halberdiers, don't they benefit from Stubborn?

VHS would mean losing either the Blades or the Cloak, the combined effect gives him Weapon skill 10, an extra attack, a 5++ Ward Save (2++ VS Flaming) and -1 to hit him in combat. Great for taking advantage of Low WS opponents. The Speculum leaves him vulnerable to being killed by generic dudes or champion only units who refuse the challenge and kill him. I'll use Beasts Magic to make him kill stuff.

The Archers would be stubborn but they'll be Steadfast as long as the Halberdiers are as well, it might be a good idea to drop them with the Greatswords anyway because I don't need them in core and they can have the "Hold The Line!" from the Captain while hes with them.

FvonSigmaringen
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 23:01:55 GMT

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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 20, 2020 23:01:55 GMT

RAW, the Witch Hunter cannot benefit from the Transformation of Kadon.

BRB p. 493: "The Transformation of Kadon is an augment spell can only be cast upon the Wizard, and only if he is on foot."

The Witch Hunter is not a Wizard, nor does the Ring of Volans make him one.

Regarding Spirit Leech, there are two contradictory FAQ:

BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p 6:
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p 11:

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

Note that Okkam's Mindrazor does not specify "unmodified Ld," while Spirit Leech does.

In the most logical and consistent application IMHO, unmodified Ld is best understood as:
- If the unit as a whole has to take an unmodified Ld test, it is the unmodified highest Ld on the profile of any model in the unit, without any boni, mali or substitutions.
- If individual models have to take an unmodified Ld test, it is the unmodified Ld value on the profile of each model, without any boni, mali or substitutions.

Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time: warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=47520.0

FvonSigmaringen God Attorney-at-RAW Posts: 2,481	Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 23:17:02 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 20, 2020 23:17:02 GMT There is more to a musician then just the 1+ to rally. Throw in swift reform and victory/no defeat in case of a tie, ad all for 10 points? It is a must for your DGK.
	Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time: warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=47520.0

1plussave
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Posts: 162

Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 20, 2020 23:39:53 GMT

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Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 23:39:53 GMT

Jan 20, 2020 23:17:02 GMT FvonSigmaringen said:

There is more to a musician then just the 1+ to rally. Throw in swift reform and victory/no defeat in case of a tie, ad all for 10 points? It is a must for your DGK.

Meh, I find the DGK tend to win or lose, the list is tight enough that I don't care enough about the possibility. The swift reform is another edge case where the circumstances that it's a game changer are so specific and its not even a certainty to work.

The Death Wizard in the Emperors unit after the 2 FAQs seems to still have the LD10, it will only be the other who needs to rely on a lower score.

I really don't care about the bound spell/not a wizard thing. If a tournament wants to see it that way then fine but seeing as most other spells were written with the assumption that caster=wizard that if you follow that interpretation then bound spells cannot be used at all without their use becoming nonsense.

They cannot be dispelled because they can only be dispelled if successfully cast by a wizard, you can cast them over and over again in the same turn (only wizards are restricted from casting a spell twice) etc...

FvonSigmaringen
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Jan 21, 2020 0:00:12 GMT Horace and gregr like this

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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 21, 2020 0:00:12 GMT

Regarding the Death Wizard: since it is the individual model that needs to use its unmodified Ld, it cannot use the highest ld in the unit.
The BRB does and can make the difference between caster and Wizard. As BRB p. 37 says: "Possessing a bound spell does not make a character a Wizard — he just has an item that can cast a spell."

You are also incorrect in saying that bound spells would not work. The rules regarding bound spells specify "A bound spell is cast just like an ordinary spell — using dice from the power pool (the model may do so even if it is not a Wizard"

and

"Bound spells are dispelled exactly as other spells — the dispelling Wizard must equal or beat the casting result for a successful dispel."

The only time this issue arises is, in fact, the RoV, because it is only bound spell item that can actually have a spell specified as being cast by a Wizard. So, at the very least, you should square this with your opponent beforehand - which ruins the element of surprise.

Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time: warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=47520.0

DiscoQing
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Aug 1, 2021 20:54:36 GMT via mobile

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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 1, 2021 20:54:36 GMT

Jan 20, 2020 23:01:55 GMT FvonSigmaringen said:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p 11:

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

Note that Okkam's Mindrazor does not specify "unmodified Ld," while Spirit Leech does.

In the most logical and consistent application IMHO, unmodified Ld is best understood as:
- If the unit as a whole has to take an unmodified Ld test, it is the unmodified highest Ld on the profile of any model in the unit, without any boni, mali or substitutions.
- If individual models have to take an unmodified Ld test, it is the unmodified Ld value on the profile of each model, without any boni, mali or substitutions.

Hey sorry to dredge this up...
But just for clarity, are you saying that Spirit Leech effecting a Ld8 Hero in a unit that has either:
a Ld10 Lord in the same unit,
Or the unit he's in is effected by the Ld10 Lord's Inspiring Presence...
The Ld8 hero will still use his own Ld8 for the purposes of the spell?

However Mindrazor will be effected by Inspiring Presence regardless...

Last Edit: Aug 1, 2021 20:55:18 GMT by DiscoQing

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FvonSigmaringen
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Aug 2, 2021 13:39:13 GMT

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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 2, 2021 13:39:13 GMT

I am saying that that would be the most logical and consistent method, although, based on the first FAQ, a model affected by Spirit leech currently can use the highest unmodified Ld in the unit (i.e. Ld 10 from a Lord inside the unit, but not from outside).

Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time: warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=47520.0

FvonSigmaringen
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Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Aug 3, 2021 15:33:35 GMT

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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 3, 2021 15:33:35 GMT

To add: note that this applies to all other characteristic tests.

Official Update Version 1.9, p.6:
Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.

Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time: warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=47520.0

strutsagget God Posts: 4,212	Enabling Empire Synergy Stupidity Aug 4, 2021 6:57:46 GMT via Tapatalk Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by strutsagget on Aug 4, 2021 6:57:46 GMT Yes they really made a mess with spirit leach.
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Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 20:08:08 GMT

Post by gregr on Jan 20, 2020 21:36:27 GMT

Post by gregr on Jan 20, 2020 21:37:06 GMT

Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 21:59:14 GMT

Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 20, 2020 23:01:55 GMT

Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 20, 2020 23:17:02 GMT

Post by 1plussave on Jan 20, 2020 23:39:53 GMT

Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 21, 2020 0:00:12 GMT

Post by DiscoQing on Aug 1, 2021 20:54:36 GMT

Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 2, 2021 13:39:13 GMT

Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 3, 2021 15:33:35 GMT

Post by strutsagget on Aug 4, 2021 6:57:46 GMT