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Post by livewaaaaagh on Mar 25, 2020 14:08:12 GMT
Hi all,
So I was theory-crafting a possible new army for after quarantine time and have settled that IF I move forward with the idea, it would be Vampire Counts. I already own about 2700 points of Tomb Kings,so with Vampire Counts, I could field them separately, or together as Undead Legions and over 5000 points in the future.
Now,the other item is I'm more of a fan of "undead", than the Vampire monsters, personally. This is pure personal preference. So if I were to do this,I'd likely go light on Vampires, and would prefer to avoid Varghesits,Vargulf,etc and focus more on skeletons, zombies and ghosts.
One last item of info for the list is that I play Total War: Warhammer, and playing Vampire Counts is one of my favorite playstyles - raising dead, etc.
So now that you have an understanding of the reasoning and goals, what I'm looking for is general feedback of course, but then also insight into whether or not what I'm HOPING to accomplish actually works in TT,as opposed to computer. Also, I'll leave some general questions below:
List:
General- Master Necromancer. Lvl 4, Black Periapt, Talisman of Preservation,master of the dead.
Necromancer, lvl 2 dispel scroll
Wight king (Question 1 - What's the preferred load out for a defensive tank BSB and an offensive Wight? )
Core:
4x 5 Dire Wolves
30x Skeletons FC
30x Skeletons FC
25x Zombies (bunker)
1x Corpse Carts w/unholy lodestone
1x Corpse cart with w/unholy lodestone or balefire
30 x Grave Guard FC w/ banner of the barrows. Great Weapons
5x Hexwraiths
3x Spirit Hosts
1x Mortis Engine
So the goalof the army is to use the corpse carts and magic to boost the skeletons and grave guard to never-ending death and slowly kill the enemy via combat + Mortis Engine.
I've only played AGAINST Vampire counts maybe 2-3 times, so I don't know exactly how this works in practice. Your feedback is welcomed!
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Post by Horace on Mar 26, 2020 20:05:37 GMT
So the problem you will have with this list is essentially it is really bad at actually killing stuff. Some Black Knights and maybe some Wraiths could be worth it. People on the internet like to use Terrorgheists but I don't like the model..
Black coach too vampirey?
You HAVE to dominate the magic phase to make it work. Kemmler works fairly well in this regard although you lose out on the ward and he isn't cheap. Book of Arkhan is also quite nice for a cheap roll at Vanhels which can draw dispel dice.
For Wight Kings, I generally try and keep them cheap. Nightshroud is a common pick and I would go for something like Fencer's Blades or the +2 attack sword to maximise the KB chances, if you want to spend some points.
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Post by tileag on Mar 26, 2020 20:09:02 GMT
Agreed on taking a bus of black knights with a wight king may be worth it to try to kill things, or more grave guard (but they too are pretty expensive). Id be interested to hear how you do with this type of list.
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Post by gregr on Mar 26, 2020 22:26:34 GMT
I don't have the book to hand but I'd look at dropping a corpse cart for the Black Coach.
I agree that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of high strength killing things. Black Knights would give you some form of cav options.
How come you're against the Vampires? I can see why you wouldnt like Terrorgheists etc (I'm not a huge fan either!)
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Mar 27, 2020 1:18:15 GMT
So the problem you will have with this list is essentially it is really bad at actually killing stuff. Some Black Knights and maybe some Wraiths could be worth it. People on the internet like to use Terrorgheists but I don't like the model.. Black coach too vampirey? You HAVE to dominate the magic phase to make it work. Kemmler works fairly well in this regard although you lose out on the ward and he isn't cheap. Book of Arkhan is also quite nice for a cheap roll at Vanhels which can draw dispel dice. For Wight Kings, I generally try and keep them cheap. Nightshroud is a common pick and I would go for something like Fencer's Blades or the +2 attack sword to maximise the KB chances, if you want to spend some points. Thank you for the feedback! I like the idea of the Black Coach,and the new model is actually quite nice. Adding maybe a Cairn Wraith or two in some of the units might help too along with Black Knights. Is 1 Corpse Cart enough to buff usually,or do you need two + Mortis Engine? |
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Mar 27, 2020 1:19:45 GMT
I don't have the book to hand but I'd look at dropping a corpse cart for the Black Coach. I agree that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of high strength killing things. Black Knights would give you some form of cav options. How come you're against the Vampires? I can see why you wouldnt like Terrorgheists etc (I'm not a huge fan either!) I'm not necessarily "against" vampires. I just prefer the raising the dead part. |
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Mar 27, 2020 13:20:49 GMT
Also, how good are ethereals in TT in practice? Like a hero Cairn Wraith, or a unit of them of like 4-5? What about Hexwraiths? The rules of them going through units and inflicting hits sounds good. Is it goodin practice?
I've only really seen Spirit Hosts used as re-directors/chaff/holders.
I also don't want to be seen as "cheesy", so I've heard of people putting enough Cairn Wraiths in the front rank of a unit on purpose - I don't want to do that.
I imagine they'd be magic missile magnets, but maybe a some Cairn Wraiths, Spirit Hosts, Hexwraiths and then add Black Coach/Mortis Engine gives the army a "theme" and these could be the "heavier hitters",along with Grave Guard.
Could use some of the new Nighthaunt models, which lookpretty good,IMO.
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Post by Horace on Mar 27, 2020 23:56:03 GMT
I don't personally see ethereals as cheese.. if people don't prepare to face them they can be severely problematic.. but if you announce them beforehand they are utterly useless.
If people don't prepare an all comers list well enough they just have to suffer/ find a way imo
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Post by sedge on Mar 30, 2020 10:56:03 GMT
Ethereals aren't as good in practice as they are on paper, but still have their uses. Cairn Wraith units, and both Cairn Wraith/Banshee characters are fairly poor for their points cost. Spirit Hosts are the best for trolling an opponent - a single one can quite comfortably hold up a unit that lacks static combat resolution (most chaff, e.g. 5-model war beast/fast cavalry units, also monsters and chariots). I'd suggest splitting your Spirit Hosts up into ones of one each.
Hexwraiths - potentially great, but also the first target for a Fireball from your opponent's mages. Running through units is nice in theory, but they're not Vampiric, and not likely to be close to your General, so you won't be marching with them often. Still worth taking as they will destroy most chaff and can own a flank that's got no casters/magic weapons on it.
If bats aren't too vampiric for you, Fell Bats are a useful as a small, cheap, warmachine hunter.
What about Ghouls/Crypt Horrors? Ghouls are your hardest hitting core, and Crypt Horrors whilst a fairly defensive unit can be built to have a solid punch. Or are they not dead enough for your liking?
I'd echo the recommendation to get Black Knights. They need some buffs to avoid rubber lance syndrome (and compete with your Grave Guard who tend to want those instead). If you've got Banner of the Barrows on the Grave Guard, take the Screaming Banner on the knights. Vanhel's is great on both units.
Wight Kings - obvious you can get a better defensive loadout on a mounted one, with +2 to their armour save. I'll quote myself from my VC Tactica:
"Wight King - a beast. Other armies would kill for a hero of this quality at just 85 points. The Wight King is a more defensive option than a Vampire, having an amazing T5 and 3W, and coming stock with heavy armour. It isn't the most skilled, with WS4, I4 and A3, though its S4 is boosted by Killing Blow. Leadership of 9 makes it invaluable should your General die, keeping a precious unit (often Black Knights/Grave Guard) alive as the lesser undead crumble around it. Your mount option is a Skeletal Steed, which can (and should) have barding - ideal for riding alongside Black Knights.
A Wight King is the obvious choice as BSB, being extremely hard to kill. While he can take the outstanding Banner of the Barrows, you're better off giving that to your unit's standard as both Black Knights/Grave Guard have a 50 point allowance. If you want to be really nasty, take the Screaming Banner too, and your whole unit will probably be hitting on 2+! However, in general you're better off using your magic item allowance on weapons/armour/talismans.
As ever, you're balancing protection and offensive power for your Wight King. If you're mounted, then a shield and lance gives you 2+ armour, and S6 on the charge; you can leave things at that for a budget option, or give them the Screaming Banner. However, in Black Knights, you probably want to opt for a weapon that gives you good damage output after the charge, so the Ogre Blade is a good choice; combine with the Enchanted Shield for 1+ armour, and constant S6. A ward save or the Nightshroud aren't so vital given your strong armour save when mounted, but could be considered if you want safety first.
If on foot (usually in Grave Guard), you'll want to boost your armour save, and you don't have the option of a lance. The Nightshroud is an excellent option if you haven't used it elsewhere, but leaves you unable to get a decent magic weapon - you could combine it with great weapon, but you'll only have a 4+ save (though the Nightshroud should mean you're mainly going to face S3/4 hits). The same applies to the Talisman of Preservation. To focus on damage, go for the Ogre Blade and Enchanted Shield for 3+ and S6, or the Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield and The Other Trickster's Shard for 3+ and S5 with your opponent re-rolling successful ward saves.
You should always have space in your army for a Wight King or two - they bolster a unit with some solidity and extra damage output. They aren't challenge beasts or blenders, but are good at working through heavily armoured infantry or cavalry, and your opponent will want to avoid their Killing Blow. While BSBs are not so vital in Undead, it's useful to have one in the centre of your infantry lines. The usual bunkers are Grave Guard and Black Knights because of banner options/mount synergies, but they can also give some extra kick to a unit of Skeleton Warriors. Don't both putting them in Zombies - they're pure tarpit or Ghouls, which play a different role."
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Post by Horace on Mar 30, 2020 12:19:16 GMT
I find a BSB is a more worthwhile addition in Black Knights where 1 less wound equates to a larger quantity of points. Obviously it applies to all within 12" so some consideration to positioning should be given
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