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Post by strutsagget on Apr 17, 2020 17:53:30 GMT
I know we have mentioned this before somewhere but I can’t find it.
What was the ruling on the sister on the eagle gwindalor?
Is it only 3 wounds total at T4 then full model is removed and the conjoined destiny rule is more or less ignored?
How did people play this in tournaments?
I would personally think it would be more fun if they both had 3 wounds on t4 and you distribute as shooting(50/50). They don’t have much save anyways and the conjoined destiny is kind of their save.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 17, 2020 20:36:09 GMT
It does not seem to have been discussed here before. RAW, you are correct. The Sisters on Gwindalor are a single model with the troop type Monstrous Cavalry.
BRB p. 83 (updated): All the cavalry rules apply to Monstrous Cavalry, with two exceptions – Monstrous Cavalry always use the highest Toughness and Wounds characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's — indeed, this will normally mean that the model uses the mount's Wounds characteristic.
What is the highest characteristic the model has? T4 and W3. But if your opponent and you agree, feel free to play it differently.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 17, 2020 21:16:42 GMT
That said, I think allowing them 6 Wounds to be regenerated all automatically, if not killed outright is a bit much for 275 points. Perhaps one could simply interpret that the Sisters as one rider, an thus the model would have T4 and W4. Alternatively, in your system, both could be restored to their starting number of Wounds of that phase (but maybe that was the intent already?).
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 18, 2020 14:06:32 GMT
That said, I think allowing them 6 Wounds to be regenerated all automatically, if not killed outright is a bit much for 275 points. Perhaps one could simply interpret that the Sisters as one rider, an thus the model would have T4 and W4. Alternatively, in your system, both could be restored to their starting number of Wounds of that phase (but maybe that was the intent already?). That we can discuss but probably not agree on  I am not sure that 275p in heros slot is unfair when it almost has 40% to die on the spot by a great cannon hit. With 0 AS and ward. Not bad but not overpowered either. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 18, 2020 16:56:27 GMT
Most lone heroes die on the spot when hit by a great cannon shot, and with S10 no armour save will do you any good. That said, my point is that you try to combine the advantages of two mutually exclusive rules while avoiding any of the drawbacks.
- The Sisters on Ceithin-Har can use the Conjoined Destiny rule, but are T3 W2 each, and, at best, can regenerate 3W per phase.
- On Gwindalor, they cannot use that rule, but the combined model has T4 W3 (or W4, depending on the interpretation).
- In your system on Gwindalor, they would have T4 and W3 each, would be able to regenerate 5W per phase(much better than on Ceithin-Har), and that for no extra cost? I think few will buy that.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 18, 2020 17:07:05 GMT
Most lone heroes die on the spot when hit by a great cannon shot, and with S10 no armour save will do you any good. That said, my point is that you try to combine the advantages of two mutually exclusive rules while avoiding any of the drawbacks. - The Sisters on Ceithin-Har can use the Conjoined Destiny rule, but are T3 W2 each, and, at best, can regenerate 3W per phase. - On Gwindalor, they cannot use that rule, but the combined model has T4 W3 (or W4, depending on the interpretation). - In your system on Gwindalor, they would have T4 and W3 each, would be able to regenerate 5W per phase(much better than on Ceithin-Har), and that for no extra cost? I think few will buy that. Most 275p heros have a ward save or RnF models to hide in if they should be qualified as playable. The conjoined destiny is that ward save. A 275p 3w no save is just not only unplayable but would probably put it in the bottom tier list of heroes in the game. As template hits all it’s still very likely to die to cannon but gives it a chance. To be honest though the monstrous cav rule is not made for a multi character models as I can’t find any other example. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 18, 2020 21:44:23 GMT
To be honest though the monstrous cav rule is not made for a multi character models as I can’t find any other example. Again, that is my point: either you use RAW, or you propose to your opponent to use the Conjoined Destiny special rule for Gwindalor too, but then without the benefits of the Monstrous Cavalry rule. It is either one or the other. |
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 19, 2020 6:19:14 GMT
To be honest though the monstrous cav rule is not made for a multi character models as I can’t find any other example. Again, that is my point: either you use RAW, or you propose to your opponent to use the Conjoined Destiny special rule for Gwindalor too, but then without the benefits of the Monstrous Cavalry rule. It is either one or the other. I hear what you are saying but it’s not to make a rule argument, more of to make it playable(make new rule). Maybe though a better alternative is to call gwindalor huge as two can ride him and change him to troop type monster. I don’t think s4 thunder stomp is that huge or maybe it is, it’s still I 275p model. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 19, 2020 8:23:00 GMT
Well, if we do the math:
2 Glade captains (150 points) + 1 Great Eagle (50 points) = 200 points. So, you pay another 75 points for
2 extra magic weapons:
- Talon of Dawn: S5 longbow with Armour Piercing,Flaming Attacks,Multiple Wounds(D6) + mount regaining 1 wound for unsaved enemy Wounds
- Talon of Dusk: S1 longbow with Armour Piercing,Multiple Shots (2D6),Poisoned Attacks
2 extra special rules:
- Sisters of Twilight (+1 To Wound in CC; but normally only one of the Sisters will be able to use it)
- Hunter's Mount (both Sisters can re-roll failed To Hit rolls for shooting attacks)
I'd say that is very fairly priced.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 19, 2020 11:30:26 GMT
To be honest there is no chance ill ever take the sister compared to two captains and a lone eagle. not even close in comparison in power level.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 19, 2020 11:58:46 GMT
Yes and no. If you do not know what you are up against, 2 captains and a lone eagle are without doubt the safer bet. The Sisters are far more situational, but can be very effective, against specific enemies and used in the right way.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 21, 2020 9:29:00 GMT
On a side note: I would price the Talon of Dawn alone at 40-50 points. Now, on Gwindalor, the Sisters can re-roll their failed To Hit rolls from shooting. With WS6, Naestra must be unlucky not to hit her target, even at long range, and after movement. With the S5 and Armour Piercing of the Talon of Dawn, she also has a good chance to inflict at least one Wound, allowing Gwindalor to regain 1 W - and it is his Wounds the combined model is using. So, whenever Gwindalor has lost a Wound, you have a good chance to regain it in the next Shooting phase, that is, if you choose the right target (you have to keep this in mind, during the movement phase). Note also that S&S could bring back a lost W, although in general, the Sisters should stay out of CC.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 21, 2020 9:47:55 GMT
How many times have you actually played them and won or are you just theory without practice?
They also need to stay out of sight as anything shooting or magic will kill it straight up. So they will most likely not be able to shoot the target it want to shoot either as I can’t find very few open target I am willing to give up 275p direct after.
So we can conclude sister is ok priced unless facing an opponent with magic, shooting and not speedy enough to catch into combat.
Good luck finding that option.
Don’t matter how much you split the or calculate. Its not even close to be playable at those rules at 275p.
Not even sure I would play it at 150p as its just easy WPs for your opponent.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 21, 2020 11:14:08 GMT
All I am saying is that with how WHF battles played out its very hard to justify and character without save and without possibility to look out sir.
Especially at high point cost. I cant even say a single character model being played in our environment that is out in the open without a ward save being played. Those are just too easy WPs collected. Even monsters with low W and T struggle.
I am even struggling to name any thats justified as playable.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 21, 2020 14:42:47 GMT
Obviously, it is theoretical - I only play Empire, and we have our own share of near useless SC (Volkmar, Marius Leitdorf, and Markus Wulfhart), you really only take for fluff reasons.
I just came up with a "creative" interpretation one could read into the rules. It is certainly closer to RAW than the other proposals. Since you use Gwindalor's W as the highest W characteristic, you actually slay the mount, not the rider(s). Normally that means that the rider too is dead or has fled the battlefield. However, Conjoined Destiny specifies: "Should their mount be slain, the sisters automatically form a unit." Hence, if you slay Gwindalor, the two Sisters survive, and can afterwards benefit from the complete Conjoined Destiny special rule.
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