hebi
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by hebi on May 2, 2020 11:54:02 GMT
Two questions
1) What happen when ST (or any other random movement model) is in the front arc of enemy unit but pivot and move in such way that he ends up move/charge touching side of that unit. Is it failed charge (and stops 1 inch away) or is it charge normal charge.
2) Can ST move after returning to battlefield? Can't find when steam points are generated compering to returning to battlefield.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 2, 2020 13:42:21 GMT
Random Movement is often misunderstood.
BRB p. 21: "A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit."
However, a Random Mover does not declare charges. The sequence (BRB p. 74) is:
1. Pivot the centre of the Random Mover to face the direction in which you wish it to travel. 2. Roll the dice shown in the model's profile. 3. Measure the distance in a straight line to see whether you come into contact with an enemy. It is important to note that this happens, before the model is actually moved, as it will determine whether the 1" rule applies or not.
3.a If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range, i.e. move the charging unit in a straight line with one free wheel of 90° to get into contact with the enemy, and then either you or the enemy closes the door. During this charge, you can also move to within 1" of other units, or impassable terrain. Of course, you need to close the door with the facing of the enemy determined by the measurement in a straight line. If that is, for some reason, impossible, it will result in a failed charge.
3.b If no charge is made, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. If the random move brings the unit to within 1" of a friendly unit or impassable terrain, it stops immediately and cannot move further during that Movement phase.
Regarding your second question: yes. SP are generated at the start of your turn and units that enter the battle are moved in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.
Empire AB p. 51: "At the start of your turn, declare how many Steam Points the Steam Tank is generating."
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hebi
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by hebi on May 2, 2020 20:38:53 GMT
Thank you for the fast answer. English isin't my first leanguge and want to make sure. So I understand I can "hit" unit in side when I started in front arc of an enemy unit. Are you sure with free wheeel for Steam Tank when making a charge? ST is very unique how he moves and he isn't allowed to do wheel.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 2, 2020 21:02:17 GMT
- You can, indeed, must hit an enemy unit in the side, if the straight line measuring the distance (see point 3) touches the side.
- The ST movement follows all the rules of Random Movement, and neither the RM, nor the ST rules prohibit wheeling. The ST is only unique regarding the use of Steam Points. So, unlike other Random Movers, the ST has (some) control over the distance it moves, and, indeed, over whether it moves at all. If you choose not to expend Steam Points in Movement, it simply cannot move, while other Random Movers usually must move, whether they want to or not.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 15:35:39 GMT
hebi I have made a couple of pictures in the hope to clarify the above. The first picture contains the starting situation, with in blue a random mover, say the Steam Tank, and in red an enemy unit. The ST is within the frontal arc of the enemy unit, but this has no bearing on on which facing will be charged. As it is the ST cannot charge anyway, since it would not contact the enemy unit, if it moved straight ahead. Picture 1:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 15:43:21 GMT
Now, the first step is to pivot the ST into the direction we want it to travel, and it is this step that basically determines which facing the ST will charge. In picture 2, the ST has pivoted somewhat. We now roll the movement dice, measure the distance in a straight line, and determine that the ST will contact the enemy unit in the front. Picture 2:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 15:52:17 GMT
This now counts as a charge, which is resolved using the normal rules for charges. In this particular case, the resolution is pretty straightforward: the ST moves straight ahead to contact the enemy unit, and then closes the door, maximising the number of models in base contact. Picture 3:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 15:56:54 GMT
In picture 4, the ST has pivoted even further. We again roll the movement dice, measure the distance in a straight line, and determine that the ST will contact the enemy unit in the flank. Picture 4:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 16:05:43 GMT
This again counts as a charge, which is resolved using the normal rules for charges. According to these rules, "you must bring as many models into base contact with the enemy as possible, from both sides" (BRB p.20). That is the main reason for the (very RAW) "freewheeling." However, if the ST moves straight ahead, and then closes the door, you will not have maximised the number of models in base contact. Picture 5:
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 4, 2020 16:15:24 GMT
Hence, following the normal rule for charging, the ST can make a free wheel, to "place your unit wherever you like against the facing of the enemy unit that is being charged," move into contact with the enemy and close the door,thus maximising the models in base contact. Obviously, you can also use the free wheel to try and circumvent any obstacles that may be present. Pictures 6-8: Apparently, a picture says a 1000 words. So, I hope that these 8000+ words have clarified things somewhat.
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Post by rahotep75 on May 7, 2020 15:10:55 GMT
Random Movement is often misunderstood. BRB p. 21: "A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit." However, a Random Mover does not declare charges. The sequence (BRB p. 74) is: 1. Pivot the centre of the Random Mover to face the direction in which you wish it to travel. 2. Roll the dice shown in the model's profile. 3. Measure the distance in a straight line to see whether you come into contact with an enemy. It is important to note that this happens, before the model is actually moved, as it will determine whether the 1" rule applies or not. 3.a If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range, i.e. move the charging unit in a straight line with one free wheel of 90° to get into contact with the enemy, and then either you or the enemy closes the door. During this charge, you can also move to within 1" of other units, or impassable terrain. Of course, you need to close the door with the facing of the enemy determined by the measurement in a straight line. If that is, for some reason, impossible, it will result in a failed charge. 3.b If no charge is made, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. If the random move brings the unit to within 1" of a friendly unit or impassable terrain, it stops immediately and cannot move further during that Movement phase. Regarding your second question: yes. SP are generated at the start of your turn and units that enter the battle are moved in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. Empire AB p. 51: "At the start of your turn, declare how many Steam Points the Steam Tank is generating." I feel like you are interpreting the random movement wrong, for charging. I bolded the relevant rules you had quoted. "resolved using the normal rules for charges" means that you determine the zone of a charger before it is moved. Regardless of where you are aiming the Steam Tank, if the majority of the unit (or front rank for multiple model units) is in a specific zone, that's the zone it charges. Pursuing into a fresh enemy is resolved effectively the same as a charge from a Random Movement. If your Picture 4 was a Chariot, Monster, or some other single model unit, and it was about to make a pursuit move that would reach the side of the enemy unit, would you consider that a flank charge?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 7, 2020 16:05:40 GMT
No, as already quoted in my first post:
BRB p. 21: "A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank or rear of the enemy unit."
BRB p. 74: "Models with Random Movement cannot declare charges."
The Random Movement Roles further specify: "If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range."
There is a difference between declaring a charge and resolving a charge. Resolving a charge comes after all charges have been declared; it is the actual execution of the charge by moving the unit.
BRB p. 16: "In this sub-phase, you'll choose one of your units and declare the charge you want it to make. Your opponent will then have the chance to have his unit hold its ground or react to the charge, either by standing and shooting or fleeing.
Once the charge reaction has been resolved, you can nominate another of your units to declare a charge, and so on, until all of your charges have been declared and reacted to — then you get to make your charge rolls and resolve the charges."
BRB p. 18: "Work through the charges one at a time, in any order decided by the player whose turn it is, calculating the charge distance for each and resolving the resultant successful or failed charge before moving on to the next unit (the only exception is when several units charge a single target — see page 23)."
BRB p. 19: "If you're charging several enemy units, remember that the rolled charge distance must be sufficient to reach both units, otherwise the charge can only be resolved against those units within range."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 7, 2020 21:49:14 GMT
Pursuing into a fresh enemy is resolved effectively the same as a charge from a Random Movement. If your Picture 4 was a Chariot, Monster, or some other single model unit, and it was about to make a pursuit move that would reach the side of the enemy unit, would you consider that a flank charge? My apologies, I forgot to answer this one. The two are not effectively the same. The one is resolving the charge, the other is charging as such. BRB p. 58: "If a pursuit move would take the pursuer into contact with an enemy unit, then the pursuers must charge the enemy unit. Carry out the charge as you would in the Movement phase, following all the normal restrictions." This effectively tells you to deal with this as in the Movement phase. So, for most units that means as in the Charge sub-phase of the Movement phase, i.e. declaring a charge with its normal rules, and then resolving the charge, using all the normal and additional rules for charging in the case of pursuit into a new enemy. For Random Movers that means as in the Compulsory Movement sub-phase of the Movement phase. i.e. pivoting in the direction you wish to travel (a given in this case), measuring the distance in a straight line to see whether it contacts the enemy (also a given in this case), and then resolve the charge, using all the normal and additional rules for charges in the case of pursuit of a new enemy.
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Post by rahotep75 on May 8, 2020 2:22:46 GMT
I'm not going to attempt to sway you, but I have never seen or known anyone to use Random Movement in the same way that you are proposing. I disagree with your interpretation of the wording and I feel that "resolving" a charge is done the exact same way for any unit that would get into base contact with an enemy. You are lending too much weight to the separate wording of declaring a charge and resolving a charge. I find it interesting that you are placing stress on "resolving" when the Pursuit rule doesn't mention resolve or declare. It says "Carry out". Games Workshop has used several phrases to effectively mean the same thing.
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Post by Naitsabes on May 8, 2020 4:22:20 GMT
Around here Fidelis' picture 4 would most certainly not fly. It would end up being a front charge. Basically we make sure the random mover has rolled higher than the distance (in a straight line), as soon as that's established, it is resolved as a regular charge, i.e. if you start in the front arc you will hit the front arc and maximize.
Not into the word parsing all that much, I will leave that to the interested parties. But, I am curious how many of you play it the Fidelis' way?
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