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Post by Horace on May 5, 2020 22:31:52 GMT
BotWD is possibly the worst addition to the game in 8th in my opinion. If balance passes were ever made to the game it would have been hammered.
If it had been a battle standard only either point wise or restricted it would have been a smidge better so you could at last kill it easier.
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Post by vulcan on May 7, 2020 15:18:49 GMT
Yup, perfectly fine. That's why every single forum has more than 1 thread about how broken it is. :facepalm: Is it even as broken as storm banner? When used on a deathstar build, more. It negates DOC pretty much entirely. As has been mentioned, for skaven magic attacks do the heavy lifting so it heavily gimps them. Any army heavily based on casting is gimped. And let's face it, characters almost always have magical weapons so they are effectively eliminated from the game as well. Storm banner just gimps gunlines, themselves a non-balanced build so you should not be surprised when your non-balanced build is gimped by another non-balanced build. Now on a more balanced army, BOTWD is a mere annoyance and can be worked around. When 90% of the points of the army are under it, that's when it becomes a game-breaker.
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Post by mottdon on May 7, 2020 15:38:41 GMT
Yeah, I generally don't take the BotWD just because I don't want to hear, "Well, you only won because of that banner!" It IS incredibly powerful and undercosted. So, unless your opponent is going balls-to-the-wall hardcore on his list building, I would probably leave it out of your list.
Now. Back to the thread.
A horde of PG is awesome. They'll probably be around all game. Especially if you stick a BSB in there and Koril. Even though he's a White Lion, sticking him in that unit will make them STUBBORN. OMG. Almost as cheesy as the BotWD. I ran 30 PG with those two in there once and they matched up against a HORDE of Skullcrushers (Why I didn't feel too bad about taking them). They got stuck in and I was only losing 3-4 each round of combat, dealing damage back, and although lost most rounds, they were going NOWHERE. I eventually wore then out and ran them down. I've also gone up against a horde of PG with my Dwarfs. They took on a Horde of GW Warriors, and a Horde of Longbeards in their flank. It took several rounds, but they eventually wore me down and made the Warriors flee off the table, and killed my Longbeards to a Dwarf. They're no joke. That's why I usually recommend them to anyone starting out with HE. They are a very soft army, and need to hit like a fast hammer. Shooting, while good, is only so effective, and magic...well, it's fickle. (Personal preference, but I don't like thinking that the only reason I won a game is because I got a couple of nuke spells off. That just doesn't make me feel like I had a good strategy.) PG is the HE only REAL effective anvil unit. Even Dragon Princes can't boast this because armor saves can be reduced. -That reminds me, I like giving the PG the Razor Standard. Gives a defensive unit a bit more bite.
I typically like to use up my core in Ellyrian Reavers. Great, versatile chaff. Small pockets of Archers are good too. Long range, you can put them in a 4 wide unit and get all 10 shots off since they can attack in 3 rows and it reduces their footprint (width) for maneuvering and targeting. I like to take two in this formation and have a wizard who can bounce between the units as needed.
Dragon Princes are always awesome too. Can't recommend those enough. Hit hard with two attacks, the champ can take a magic weapon and they have good defense (don't forget that 6++!) and maneuverability.
Flamespyre Phoenix. I know your opponents often take horde armies. That's what this guy is for. You're welcome.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 7, 2020 15:58:08 GMT
I consider the BOTWD is the single most broken item in the game. (Matt Ward gonna Matt Ward) For a fun high elf army just use our group's simple and fluffy fix for the BOTWD. The BOTWD only works if within 12 inches of a Dragon. (Actual dragon, not dragon princes but does include things like a zombie/chaos dragon) It actually makes for fun games using the BOTWD and such a drawback actually makes it pretty balanced for the points. Now back to fun lists with high elves. Spearmen and Seaguard are great and iconic. Fun to kill for your opponent and just an all round great unit (for aesthetic army purposes) Elyrion reavers are very fun to use and due to their points not broken at all. Phoenix guard are actually the weakest offensive (special troop) horde for the high elves so people shouldn't complain with or without the BOTWD (so long as you use my tweak mentioned above, opponents can try to kill the dragon to remove the buff which makes for far more interesting games than the standard BOTWD points denial ones) Phoenix guard look amazing and are great defensively. So long as your heart is in the right place when fielding a horde of them go for it! Swordmasters are absolutely bunter offensively but squishy and expensive enough that they aren't broken. They lost their rerolls (from prior edition) so are ok to field and satisfying to kill for the opponent. Flame Phoenix and griffon lord are great for dun battles. We actually play with a buffed Flame Phoenix and nerfed Frost Phoenix which even then out as RAW and points wise the Frost is superior in 95% of cases. High elves are strong but squishy and so long as you aren't trying to break the game (Matt Ward/BOTD etc) they should be fun for you to play and your opponent to VS. Griffon lords look great but constantly fixing the stand is a pain. The Island of blood set is a great start and all the units look great and should be fun for both you and your opponent. Knowing your paint jobs your high elves would be an absolute pleasure to face for me personally. Pictured (Elfarion doing work) and a custom 4 horse tiranoc chariot supporting some classic spear elves.
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Post by knoffles on May 7, 2020 20:13:14 GMT
I don’t object to the BoTWD too much (and I tended to face it with dwarves). Sure it’s undercosted but it’s still in the rules so it’s something to deal with. I believe your group tends to favour the more filthy lists anyway so it’s fairgane for you. I’ve never faced it on Phoenix guard (they are pretty defensive already) but tended to see the horde of white lions, with Alarielle and the BoTWD. Just avoid that and kill everything else you can. I love the versatility of the HEs. Just having so many options in your core means you can field any style army you want and as fluffy or not as you want to. Just decide if you want a more offensive, defensive or combined arms style
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Post by strutsagget on May 7, 2020 20:14:59 GMT
I don’t object to the BoTWD too much (and I tended to face it with dwarves). Sure it’s undercosted but it’s still in the rules so it’s something to deal with. I believe your group tends to favour the more filthy lists anyway so it’s fairgane for you. I’ve never faced it on Phoenix guard (they are pretty defensive already) but tended to see the horde of white lions, with Alarielle and the BoTWD. Just avoid that and kill everything else you can. I love the versatility of the HEs. Just having so many options in your core means you can field any style army you want and as fluffy or not as you want to. Just decide if you want a more offensive, defensive or combined arms style I would say I think I want to start out with an offensive list.
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Post by mottdon on May 8, 2020 0:13:44 GMT
Then I'd build it around either Dragon Princes or White Lions. Depending on how you want to attack. I prefer 15 Dragon Princes. That's just HARD to stop.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 8, 2020 3:35:04 GMT
I don’t object to the BoTWD too much (and I tended to face it with dwarves). Sure it’s undercosted but it’s still in the rules so it’s something to deal with. I believe your group tends to favour the more filthy lists anyway so it’s fairgane for you. I’ve never faced it on Phoenix guard (they are pretty defensive already) but tended to see the horde of white lions, with Alarielle and the BoTWD. Just avoid that and kill everything else you can. I love the versatility of the HEs. Just having so many options in your core means you can field any style army you want and as fluffy or not as you want to. Just decide if you want a more offensive, defensive or combined arms style I would say I think I want to start out with an offensive list. What Mottdon says. Also add in a sprinkling of Swordmasters and you have the 3 hardest hitting units in the high elf army. To stick with the offensive theme you would likely also want to take at least 1 chariot. Tiranoc chariots are squishy but almost the fastest chariots in the game and cheap in points. Lion chariots are slower but hit much harder. Opponents definitely won't want to avoid these ones.
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Post by strutsagget on May 8, 2020 6:05:06 GMT
Problem is How to do a fitting offensive a Core in an offensive list.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 8, 2020 6:32:47 GMT
Problem is How to do a fitting offensive a Core in an offensive list. Horde of spear elves (50 strong). Buff with Mindrazor...... Super pokes. A buffed spear elf horde is scarier than a white lion horde. A guy at my local GW used to run a 60 strong unit and it was legendary and rightfully feared on the table top.
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Post by sedge on May 8, 2020 9:35:15 GMT
Problem is How to do a fitting offensive a Core in an offensive list. Silver Helms and Reavers. The Spears also work as an Anvil/Steadfast breaker while your other units do the real damage.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 8, 2020 9:49:55 GMT
Problem is How to do a fitting offensive a Core in an offensive list. Silver Helms and Reavers. The Spears also work as an Anvil/Steadfast breaker while your other units do the real damage. The biggest issue with Silver Helms is imo the models and which models to use for them. Of course it's all subjective but I think the plastic Reavers look great, the plastic Dragon Princes (and oop ones) look great but the out dated silver helms look not so great besides them. I was actually thinking that the new Lumineth Cow Elves might be a great opportunity for some more modern looking silver helms with their new cavalry. I've always wanted a nice unit of Silver Helms to use. I was using a unit of Kislev Winged Lancers as proxy Silver Helms but stopped as it was still somewhat visually jarring. I definitely agree with you on their merits for offensive core.
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Post by knoffles on May 8, 2020 11:28:36 GMT
Silver Helms and Reavers. The Spears also work as an Anvil/Steadfast breaker while your other units do the real damage. The biggest issue with Silver Helms is imo the models and which models to use for them. Of course it's all subjective but I think the plastic Reavers look great, the plastic Dragon Princes (and oop ones) look great but the out dated silver helms look not so great besides them. I was actually thinking that the new Lumineth Cow Elves might be a great opportunity for some more modern looking silver helms with their new cavalry. I've always wanted a nice unit of Silver Helms to use. I was using a unit of Kislev Winged Lancers as proxy Silver Helms but stopped as it was still somewhat visually jarring. I definitely agree with you on their merits for offensive core. I actually really like the silverhelm models (the most recent iteration rather than the older models - though I don’t mind them either). Probably for their simplicity in design (compared to the fantastic dragon princes). If I didn’t already have 16 of them, I’d definitely buy the new cow elf horses to use as silverhelms as I really like those models.
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Post by strutsagget on May 10, 2020 19:00:52 GMT
Me too just need paint my 30 silver helms guess 15 in a buss is enough though.
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