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Post by snyggejygge on May 13, 2020 8:20:17 GMT
Tbh 8th edition as an introduction game is very bad, the normal size of battles meant that a new player not only have to buy a rulebook, armybook & a few models, no he/she needs to buy 100-200 models, assemble them & (unless in a friendly group or a group of friends) paint them as well, that´s a lot of money & hours spent before you even play your first game.
The rule-set isn´t particularly easy for new players either, you usually need to learn the game from some other player or check videos.
GW probably needs to redo warhammer, or go back to an older edition where you can play games with a lot less models (but that scales so you can play larger games as well), the rules need to be simpler as well. I´m sorry to say this, but we won´t be getting a cleaned up version of 8th edition, because that´s a recipe for disaster when it comes to finding new players, which equals more sales.GW knows this & they´re first & foremost a company, they don´t really care about our old armies, that´s also a big reason why it most likely will be set in different timelines, that means unique units they can sell even to old players.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 13, 2020 8:24:15 GMT
Nice bears, pity those designs will be wasted on Forge World minis. Could you imagine what a great plastic kit they would have made if GW had been more enthusiastic? They do plastics too from my under standing. Hores Hersey starter box is just plastic sprues. That is a good point, I forgot about Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero. Even though those sets no longer exist, it would be great if GW did release some sets in plastic for this to allow players to get started, and only have specialist units in FW Resin. Another idea I had that I've mentioned before would be if GW brought back all the plastics they had at the end of 8th along with a new starter set in plastic, and only make new units and factions that haven't been seen before in Forge World Resin - that's what they did with Middle Earth and even though I'm annoyed at the super-cool Hobbit Dwarves being made out of resin, I'm pleased that they've also revived the Lord of the Rings Dwarves range, which is plastic. |
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Post by snyggejygge on May 13, 2020 8:24:17 GMT
For sure I remember knowing the deal with Harry at some point but can't for the life of me remember the story. Total agreement with the 20 models. I like 24 bc I think six wide looks cooler but I really hope it's not 30-50 again. I preferred smaller-scale battles too, and don't have any units in my collection bigger than around 25 models - the only real reason why people took larger units of 30+ models in 8th was due to the Horde rule, which I'm hoping will be kicked out in TOW. My 5th edition chaos army is a grand total of 33 models, my wood elves is 55 models, it´s not skirmish games, but much easier for a new player to handle. BTW Harry is still active on facebook in various old & middlehammer groups. He hasn´t said anything about warhammer the old world though. |
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 13, 2020 8:25:54 GMT
I preferred smaller-scale battles too, and don't have any units in my collection bigger than around 25 models - the only real reason why people took larger units of 30+ models in 8th was due to the Horde rule, which I'm hoping will be kicked out in TOW. My 5th edition chaos army is a grand total of 33 models, my wood elves is 55 models, it´s not skirmish games, but much easier for a new player to handle. Pleased to hear it - down with the Horde rule!  |
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Post by sedge on May 13, 2020 10:23:50 GMT
All the specialist games team boxed sets have been plastic, and they've been supplemented with more plastics (e.g. Blood Bowl teams, Necromunda Gangs, further Adeptus Titanicus titans). Best of all they're available via GW, which means you can get them from a reseller with a decent discount. The "extras" have been via FW (e.g. Blood Bowl special characters, conversion kits) which isn't so good from a price point of view - but hopefully it means the model kits will be good; FW used to do some damn good WFB kits (Land Ship anyone?). That said, some of their Blood Bowl special characters have been rushed and terrible.
Also, WFB was just as playable at small points levels - you can have great games at 500, 1000 or 1500 points. It's the players that chose not to do that.
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Post by jukei on May 13, 2020 10:54:15 GMT
Also, WFB was just as playable at small points levels - you can have great games at 500, 1000 or 1500 points. It's the players that chose not to do that.
exactly! where I was playing before everybody wanted to play 2500 points armies...at least!!!! This stopped people to play for a while.( it takes months ..maybe years for building and painting 2500 points). 500 points can be perfectly played and you can have lot of fun with such a small army using wfb 8th ed.rules . |
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Post by jukei on May 13, 2020 11:21:51 GMT
Meh, this changes nothing for me. I have been playing miniature games for over 20 years. I drew the line in the sand with GW in 2015. I'm not investing anymore money with them for new games or miniatures. It's not for any love of the lore. The stuff in the rulebooks was terrible on the same level as Twilight fan fiction. It lacks depth, character development, and is as interesting as televised golf. That being said I did enjoy the game system. I love fantasy and scifi and always found it more interesting to adapt the rules to my own ideas. I played fantasy 4th-8th and 40k 2nd-5th. For me 8th was the best version of fantasy and 4th with the 5th ed codexes was the best 40K. My line in the sand was that I was tired of investing time and money to build armies and having GW pull the rug out and say "oh you can't use that anymore" 🤬 that and 🤬 them. I have all the resources I need to play 8th and between my son and I we have every army except Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, we even have Kislev and Slayers. I have never needed GW to run my imagination and they won't pull me in with their carrot and stick. I like your post. I also can say 8th ed is a cool ed. ( not perfect for sure) . Anyway, with some home rules ( for instance, limiting maximum number of dices to 5 for casting spells and cannons damage to d3 or d3 +1 wounds ) can make even more enjoyable and balanced the game. I don't want and I don't need to follow GW anymore. What I miss is the possibility to buy some models they used to produce. I had a wish list but not enough money that time... A lot of things were axed and if they restock or produce again the old style miniatures ( with squared bases also) I will buy for sure some boxes. If they won't do it...then...I will use what I have , I will search for alternatives and ...what can I say? ...they won't have my money. Back in the day it was told Whf was not selling enough. This was never clear to me because we really don't know what was "enough" for them. In a company like GW for sure they had a target to reach yearly and I am sure they raised that target more and more. They say AOS is selling more... Good for GW. I played it couple of times and I didn't like it. I don't see why is appealing but I respect other people' s taste. I watched also Battle reports on youtube and really it's not what I search in a tabletop game. What can be old world about? I am almost sure they won't resurrect 8th ed. they need to sell new books ,new rules, new miniatures . If this is their decision...then I will also draw the line in the sand.... a second time... |
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Tubis
Full Member
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Post by Tubis on May 13, 2020 11:41:10 GMT
Also, WFB was just as playable at small points levels - you can have great games at 500, 1000 or 1500 points. It's the players that chose not to do that. I cannot agree more. I have been playing 1000-1500 point games all of last year and they are great fun and play fast. The pressure for 2500 point games was introduced by GW when 8th hit via white dwarfs etc. and then supported by the toruney circuit without much consideration. Which was an insane thing to do. How much money and time does it take to buy and paint a 2500 army? A year? Two? Three? That's a super high 'blood price' before you can enjoy a game you invest so much in. |
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Post by snyggejygge on May 13, 2020 12:52:50 GMT
Also, WFB was just as playable at small points levels - you can have great games at 500, 1000 or 1500 points. It's the players that chose not to do that. I respectfully disagree, while warhammer 8th edition is playable at smaller pointvalues, the way combat, magic, steadfast, hordes etc etc works compared to earlier editions it makes small units kind of useless, eg if playing say 500 points, you want a spellcaster, a small chaff unit & one large unit of heavyhitters, compared to older editions like 6th where a small unit of 16 is very viable, characters of less importance & chaff more important, I think it´s better to base the game on something like that, but make it scalable, maybe by introducing "advanced" rules such as steadfast or step-up at certain point values. |
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Post by roughtimes on May 13, 2020 13:07:06 GMT
For sure I remember knowing the deal with Harry at some point but can't for the life of me remember the story. Total agreement with the 20 models. I like 24 bc I think six wide looks cooler but I really hope it's not 30-50 again. I preferred smaller-scale battles too, and don't have any units in my collection bigger than around 25 models - the only real reason why people took larger units of 30+ models in 8th was due to the Horde rule, which I'm hoping will be kicked out in TOW. To be fair, it does look cool to have massive hordes but it's asking a lot in terms of $$$ and hobby time. |
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Post by roughtimes on May 13, 2020 13:11:19 GMT
Tbh 8th edition as an introduction game is very bad, the normal size of battles meant that a new player not only have to buy a rulebook, armybook & a few models, no he/she needs to buy 100-200 models, assemble them & (unless in a friendly group or a group of friends) paint them as well, that´s a lot of money & hours spent before you even play your first game. The rule-set isn´t particularly easy for new players either, you usually need to learn the game from some other player or check videos. GW probably needs to redo warhammer, or go back to an older edition where you can play games with a lot less models (but that scales so you can play larger games as well), the rules need to be simpler as well. I´m sorry to say this, but we won´t be getting a cleaned up version of 8th edition, because that´s a recipe for disaster when it comes to finding new players, which equals more sales.GW knows this & they´re first & foremost a company, they don´t really care about our old armies, that´s also a big reason why it most likely will be set in different timelines, that means unique units they can sell even to old players. I have no sense of how complicated the rules for 8th edition were. It was easy for me bc I had played so many previous versions. Warhammer is not really as deep or complex as other games. Was it that the rules weren't clear? |
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Post by mottdon on May 13, 2020 13:50:06 GMT
I really started with 8th. I had collected for years prior to playing, but only delved into "learning how to play" in 8th. Sure, it took some effort to learn, but as with ANY game, if you take the time to actually learn it, it'll come. I've also had a MUCH more difficult time learning other table top games. It really depends on where your interest lies and how much effort you're willing to put into it. Complaining about how hard it is to learn immediately tells me whether or not someone is truly interested in playing the game.
That being said, personally, I'd love to see them develop this new version so that it has a scaled point style escalation narrative. Similar to Mordheim rules, where as you go, the scenarios increase scale-wise. Armies grow and new units are added. This could allow GW to continue building and adding to armies at a more measured rate, instead of a once-every-4-or-5-years army dump, listen to customer feedback (how people like X unit, what they'd like to see next, etc.) and start new players off at a small scale (very affordable one) and build up to the major battles as they add to their army. That would allow many of us veterans to jump right in and still us most of our existing armies and still add the new units (Bear Riders, etc.). That seems like a win-win to me. It may mean that GW would have to invest a bit more in scenario development, but who doesn't love Mordheim? It also means they could sell more books. Just sayin'.
Say you have the Three Emperors Campaign, War of the Beard, and Blackfire Pass (Just an example - I seriously doubt that they'd venture into an actual Sigmar tale - at first at least). Start with small skirmishes, leading up to major clashes. Done, end of story. On to the next set of book and army releases. That could potentially go on forever. Just keep writing stories.
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Post by jukei on May 13, 2020 14:02:30 GMT
Also, WFB was just as playable at small points levels - you can have great games at 500, 1000 or 1500 points. It's the players that chose not to do that. I respectfully disagree, while warhammer 8th edition is playable at smaller pointvalues, the way combat, magic, steadfast, hordes etc etc works compared to earlier editions it makes small units kind of useless, eg if playing say 500 points, you want a spellcaster, a small chaff unit & one large unit of heavyhitters, compared to older editions like 6th where a small unit of 16 is very viable, characters of less importance & chaff more important, I think it´s better to base the game on something like that, but make it scalable, maybe by introducing "advanced" rules such as steadfast or step-up at certain point values. I don't agree. Horde and abuse of magic ( six dices for the win) are usually accused to be the "wrong" part of the 8th ed. Now , instead, it's a problem if we cannot take advantage of these rules.... Interesting...:-) I am going to post some armybuild now. OK 499/500 points Butcher Ironfist, Lore of the Great Maw, Wizard Level 1Dragonbane Gem 10x Gnoblars Trappers, 5x Ogres Ironfists- Standard Bearer 2xMournfang Cavalry Heavy Armour, Ironfists Sabretusk Pack Beautiful armylist isn't it? we have a wizard general -2 core units- 1 chaff and- 1 unit of heavy cavarly... I would say wowwww 500 points ! yes.500 TK
497/500 Liche Priest : Hierophant, Lore of Nehekhara, Wizard Level 2 Opal Amulet 17x Skeleton Archers, Standard Bearer 5x Skeleton Horsemen 3 x Necropolis Knights ( or 4 Ushabti great weapon / additional hand weapon) what is missing here? magic? we have . shooting ? nah we have chaff..yes we have and also heavy hitters... Lizardmen
496/500 Saurus Scar-Veteran Light Armour, Shield Skink Priest Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 1 11x Saurus Warriors 10x Skink Skirmisher Bastiladon oh monster..? sure we can have . All this it's just to show how the game can be complete( shooting , magic , monster, heavyhitters) and can be enjoyable even without taking advantage of bigger magic phase , bigger shooting phase, horde and steadfast rules. Sorry for the off-topic. |
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Post by mottdon on May 13, 2020 14:12:34 GMT
I don't see many hordes or steadfast rules affecting games of 500 points very often. That's usually what we play for quick games or to teach a newcomer. Low level spellcasters are completely playable too. You usually have to decide on if you want to go magic or close combat leadership style though.
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Post by jukei on May 13, 2020 14:16:16 GMT
I don't see many hordes or steadfast rules affecting games of 500 points very often. That's usually what we play for quick games or to teach a newcomer. Low level spellcasters are completely playable too. You usually have to decide on if you want to go magic or close combat leadership style though. true!! and this is also the interesting and cool part of playing smaller games. the 8thed. works well also with small and quick games. |
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