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Post by strutsagget on May 16, 2020 19:43:49 GMT
It depends if you mean full army lists or just one model.
Army lists can all top tier army do incredible powerful stuff.
Dark Elves Pegasus spam, witches, executioners, repeaters WoC chariot spam, dual chimeras High elves BotWD abusing in the way of your personal flavor.
Single model/units I have heard of good blender lords, unkillable hortense lords, nutty maxed out daemon princes, Ld 10 skaven slave baubles backed up by WMs.
Personally I don’t like cannons(thier rules) and especially the ones mounted on chariots. Point and click wipe a unit of your preference style of play. You just can’t drink any good booze when they are on the table. 🤪
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Post by saniles on May 16, 2020 19:46:21 GMT
Massive units of 30+ Chaos Warriors with some Skullcrushers and/or pretty much any other unit from the last Warriors of Chaos book except Marauders - the latter are probably the one thing in the 8th Edition list that isn't OP. Ridiculous. Sounds like a unit of future clanrats for me.... lol
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 16, 2020 22:56:22 GMT
It depends if you mean full army lists or just one model. Agreed. Army lists can all top tier army do incredible powerful stuff. If you mean that all armies can do that, then that is incorrect. Personally I don’t like cannons(thier rules) and especially the ones mounted on chariots. Point and click wipe a unit of your preference style of play. You just can’t drink any good booze when they are on the table. 🤪 Uh, no. Cannon can wipe out single models, but normally not units that are comprised of multiple models. Neither is it a simple matter of point and click. That said, I do agree that cannon mounted on chariots should be "Move or Fire", or at least have some penalty. In addition, I would favour a return to the previous rule regarding ridden monsters, in casuthat the hit is randomised between rider and mount.
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Post by strutsagget on May 17, 2020 5:16:26 GMT
It depends if you mean full army lists or just one model. Agreed. Army lists can all top tier army do incredible powerful stuff. If you mean that all armies can do that, then that is incorrect. Personally I don’t like cannons(thier rules) and especially the ones mounted on chariots. Point and click wipe a unit of your preference style of play. You just can’t drink any good booze when they are on the table. 🤪 Uh, no. Cannon can wipe out single models, but normally not units that are comprised of multiple models. Neither is it a simple matter of point and click. That said, I do agree that cannon mounted on chariots should be "Move or Fire", or at least have some penalty. In addition, I would favour a return to the previous rule regarding ridden monsters, in casuthat the hit is randomised between rider and mount. I said top tier armies. Even though the spelling of that sentence is questionable. I have had full cavalry units been wiped out multiple times when chariots can move up flank and then just s10 d6 kill it all. Or two rank units wiped out a row and then fled off table. 66% chance (minus some very rare instance of firing to short) is as broken as it gets.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on May 17, 2020 5:56:36 GMT
Agreed. If you mean that all armies can do that, then that is incorrect. Uh, no. Cannon can wipe out single models, but normally not units that are comprised of multiple models. Neither is it a simple matter of point and click. That said, I do agree that cannon mounted on chariots should be "Move or Fire", or at least have some penalty. In addition, I would favour a return to the previous rule regarding ridden monsters, in casuthat the hit is randomised between rider and mount. I said top tier armies. Even though the spelling of that sentence is questionable. I have had full cavalry units been wiped out multiple times when chariots can move up flank and then just s10 d6 kill it all. Or two rank units wiped out a row and then fled off table. 66% chance (minus some very rare instance of firing to short) is as broken as it gets. they use a cannon like a scalpel, like a surgeon to pick out your bsb.... and then they moan about the steadfast rule lol
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 17, 2020 15:43:02 GMT
2 + Skull Cannons of Khorne in a Daemon army. Move and shoot cannons with ward saves that are immune to psychology. Also very capable of killing standard Warmachine hunters. Makes any Daemon list far more annoying.
Multiple gorebeast chariots of Nurgle. Ridiculously hard to kill tank chariots for bargain basement points costs. Mark of Nurgle for extra defence. Makes any WOC army more annoying. Combine with 'unkillable' Nurgle Daemon Prince build for a rage inducing albeit acceptably thematic list.
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Post by Sweet_Totally on May 17, 2020 16:26:19 GMT
Well now I feel bad for habitually bringing two Nurgle Gorebeast chariots.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 18, 2020 8:56:08 GMT
Massive units of 30+ Chaos Warriors with some Skullcrushers and/or pretty much any other unit from the last Warriors of Chaos book except Marauders - the latter are probably the one thing in the 8th Edition list that isn't OP. Ridiculous. Sounds like a unit of future clanrats for me.... lol If you can get that Dreaded Thirteenth Spell cast, and the Warriors of Chaos player will be bound to keep some of his dispel dice ready to make sure you don't
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Post by saniles on May 18, 2020 18:15:20 GMT
Sounds like a unit of future clanrats for me.... lol If you can get that Dreaded Thirteenth Spell cast, and the Warriors of Chaos player will be bound to keep some of his dispel dice ready to make sure you don't 6 dice every time! Lol
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Post by snyggejygge on May 18, 2020 19:51:10 GMT
Massive units of 30+ Chaos Warriors with some Skullcrushers and/or pretty much any other unit from the last Warriors of Chaos book except Marauders - the latter are probably the one thing in the 8th Edition list that isn't OP. Ridiculous. Seriously, warriors are rather weak considering 20 points per model, with command & banner such a unit is 650+ points, a powerbuild that decimates that is Throgg & friends, a troll horde is something to be scared of, a horde of slow moving warriors not so much....
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 19, 2020 4:14:52 GMT
Well now I feel bad for habitually bringing two Nurgle Gorebeast chariots. Haha, they are so good for the points they commonly pop up which supports my post that they are one of the best things/builds. Chaos Chariots as core with Gorebeast chariots in special is a pretty brutal building basis for WOC lists and is a slight trampling of a Beastmen theme. Gorebeast chariots are fittingly slower than standard ones which is a mitigation factor on their OP ness. Skull Cannons however.....grrrrrrr!
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Post by TheRealGIB on May 19, 2020 17:26:03 GMT
As a Dwarf player, as much as it hurts me, I do agree that cannons verse ridden monsters is an issue. Randomizing the hit should probably be the way to go. Given that, I have to come to the defense of my favorite shiny boom sticks. It has been talked about before on the forum of the "brokenness" of cannons. It really comes down to the points efficiency of cannons, and what the spread on that is. When you build an army list, you have to decide what you index into. Cannons are a mid-cost, hyper efficient answer to multi-wound, expensive models. Against things that do not fall into that category, their effectiveness falls off drastically. Now, cannons on chariots that can move and fire, god damn that's scary.
As far as the "Best Builds in 8th edition" goes, i think I have to go with the BotWD High Elf load outs. Since the most common way to take out death stars like that is magic or high volume/ War machine shooting, you combine that unit with some great WM hunters like reavers or eagles. Now magic is severely limited to only spells that remove models, war machines are on a timer to whittle them down due to being hunted down by eagles or 18" marching fast cavalry, and any casualties that are taken can be healed back by easy access to the lore of life. The HE player then proceeds to shove his block of *Insert special choice here* down the enemies throat while clearing chaff with bolt throwers, archers and magic.
I highly recommend White Lions for this, but Sword Masters work almost as well. Would not go with Phoenix Guard as their offensive output is not quite high enough for my taste. For a real interesting, less competitive, but more cool build, the Dragon Knight bus is pretty neat.
I think it would be cool to dig back through some of the old GT results and see what kind of armies the winners and best in faction players were playing.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 19, 2020 22:42:56 GMT
@therealgib: As you say, shooting is the biggest threat to such a death star, and, if the HE player comes prepared, war machines are on a timer to whittle them down. But, in any case, it will take some time, and the enemy too may come prepared to deal with those war machine hunters. The big plus for the Phoenix Guard is that they already start with a 4+ ward save, easily improved to a 3+ ward save by the High Magic Lore Attribute. Against armies with good shooting units, or if you do not know what you are up against, the Phoenix Guard is by far the safer bet.
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Post by lordofskullpass on May 20, 2020 9:13:44 GMT
Massive units of 30+ Chaos Warriors with some Skullcrushers and/or pretty much any other unit from the last Warriors of Chaos book except Marauders - the latter are probably the one thing in the 8th Edition list that isn't OP. Ridiculous. Seriously, warriors are rather weak considering 20 points per model, with command & banner such a unit is 650+ points, a powerbuild that decimates that is Throgg & friends, a troll horde is something to be scared of, a horde of slow moving warriors not so much.... Hmm, I would agree with you if it wasn't for Trolls being vulnerable to Flaming Attacks - as a Dwarf player I could just take a load of Irondrakes and a Flame Cannon or a Cannon with Rune of Burning to counter that. Not to mention that Trolls are Initiative 1, meaning I can at least have a go at taking some of them down in melee before they strike back, and even at Leadership 8 from Throgg they still have a chance of failing a Stupidity test and messing up your game. I actually see Ogres as more of a threat than a Troll army as they have higher Initiative (so against my Dwarfs they usually get to fight at the same time), no Stupidity, Ogre Charge and at least some form of armour. A Warrior horde on the other hand is not only more durable against shooting with 3+ or 4+ saves with no vulnerability to Flaming Attacks, but also a nightmare to deal with when they do reach you - they can blitz your great weapon units in one round of combat and while other infantry can whittle them down a bit, their good armour and potentially crazy number of Attacks means you're still at a big disadvantage. It's times like those in which I should always take my Organ Gun with me...
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Post by TheRealGIB on May 20, 2020 12:24:52 GMT
FvonSigmaringen, They are one of the safer bets, but even if you horde them and get max frontage, you are getting 41 (2 ranks, horde, Martial Prowess right?) attacks at S4. which, while not bad, is nowhere near as good as the S6 for white lions. White Lions also have the lion cloak to help mitigate shooting damage, and I think they might be cheaper per model than PG, but it's been a while since I read the HE book. If the PG star runs into any other books deathstars, it won't lose out right, but it won't be chopping up chosen or gutstars nearly fast enough. Things like FtS, Earthblood, and regrowth are what makes the PG survivability less important than their killing power. I am going to go back through the HE book when I get home from work, but my money is still on the lion bus.
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