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Post by snyggejygge on May 20, 2020 12:55:48 GMT
Seriously, warriors are rather weak considering 20 points per model, with command & banner such a unit is 650+ points, a powerbuild that decimates that is Throgg & friends, a troll horde is something to be scared of, a horde of slow moving warriors not so much.... Hmm, I would agree with you if it wasn't for Trolls being vulnerable to Flaming Attacks - as a Dwarf player I could just take a load of Irondrakes and a Flame Cannon or a Cannon with Rune of Burning to counter that. Not to mention that Trolls are Initiative 1, meaning I can at least have a go at taking some of them down in melee before they strike back, and even at Leadership 8 from Throgg they still have a chance of failing a Stupidity test and messing up your game. I actually see Ogres as more of a threat than a Troll army as they have higher Initiative (so against my Dwarfs they usually get to fight at the same time), no Stupidity, Ogre Charge and at least some form of armour. A Warrior horde on the other hand is not only more durable against shooting with 3+ or 4+ saves with no vulnerability to Flaming Attacks, but also a nightmare to deal with when they do reach you - they can blitz your great weapon units in one round of combat and while other infantry can whittle them down a bit, their good armour and potentially crazy number of Attacks means you're still at a big disadvantage. It's times like those in which I should always take my Organ Gun with me... Well being a dwarf player with access to loads of flaming attacks, I guess your view might be biased, vs most other armies though the trolls are a nightmare, 17 trolls vomiting a S5 autohit without saves is dangerous, Throgg´s attacks is just a bonus. I used a horde of these one tournament, won the whole thing, the horde played a very large part in it, even against a dwarf player (who had organ guns but only 1 cannon).
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Post by TheRealGIB on May 20, 2020 14:56:34 GMT
The other issue with a lot of these deathstars that end up costing ~50% of an army list is their vulnerability to being redirected, chaffed up, and possibly tar pitted. Good players will identify pretty quick that their army can or cannot handle the deathstar and then play accordingly. In battles where people just march forward and charge, the stars work pretty well, but there is a reason that they were less prevalent at top tables at high level events.
I feel we kinda got off track from the original post about "Best/most powerful builds", into a deathstar discussion, but I have found often that they aren't really the pinnacle of strength in most army books, beaten out in scenario play with good players.
A lot of books have very powerful lists that can be built, regardless of overall strength of the book, but those lists from the newer books at the end of 8th edition tend to take the cake for me. Playing a well-built list from pretty much any book should give you a decent chance at winning, but you will definitely be at a handicap against top tier lists from top tier books.
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Post by tileag on May 20, 2020 17:52:22 GMT
The other issue with a lot of these deathstars that end up costing ~50% of an army list is their vulnerability to being redirected, chaffed up, and possibly tar pitted. Good players will identify pretty quick that their army can or cannot handle the deathstar and then play accordingly. In battles where people just march forward and charge, the stars work pretty well, but there is a reason that they were less prevalent at top tables at high level events. I feel we kinda got off track from the original post about "Best/most powerful builds", into a deathstar discussion, but I have found often that they aren't really the pinnacle of strength in most army books, beaten out in scenario play with good players. A lot of books have very powerful lists that can be built, regardless of overall strength of the book, but those lists from the newer books at the end of 8th edition tend to take the cake for me. Playing a well-built list from pretty much any book should give you a decent chance at winning, but you will definitely be at a handicap against top tier lists from top tier books. This is a great post that covers some of my feelings on the subject as well.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on May 21, 2020 6:38:08 GMT
The other issue with a lot of these deathstars that end up costing ~50% of an army list is their vulnerability to being redirected, chaffed up, and possibly tar pitted. Good players will identify pretty quick that their army can or cannot handle the deathstar and then play accordingly. In battles where people just march forward and charge, the stars work pretty well, but there is a reason that they were less prevalent at top tables at high level events. I feel we kinda got off track from the original post about "Best/most powerful builds", into a deathstar discussion, but I have found often that they aren't really the pinnacle of strength in most army books, beaten out in scenario play with good players. A lot of books have very powerful lists that can be built, regardless of overall strength of the book, but those lists from the newer books at the end of 8th edition tend to take the cake for me. Playing a well-built list from pretty much any book should give you a decent chance at winning, but you will definitely be at a handicap against top tier lists from top tier books. This is a great post that covers some of my feelings on the subject as well. the power creep in 8th was insane.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 21, 2020 7:01:06 GMT
Nothing compared to 7th.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on May 21, 2020 7:50:52 GMT
Matt ward !
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Post by tileag on May 21, 2020 16:40:20 GMT
I never played 7th, but ive heard the horror stories that were the DOC book
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 22, 2020 5:44:18 GMT
I never played 7th, but ive heard the horror stories that were the DOC book Haha Consider yourself a blessed man. Such horrors are best forgotten about but occasionally the nightmares resurface. Let's just say that Beastmen in 8th have it damn good compared to Beasts of Chaos vs Daemons in 7th lol.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 22, 2020 5:45:49 GMT
The other issue with a lot of these deathstars that end up costing ~50% of an army list is their vulnerability to being redirected, chaffed up, and possibly tar pitted. Good players will identify pretty quick that their army can or cannot handle the deathstar and then play accordingly. In battles where people just march forward and charge, the stars work pretty well, but there is a reason that they were less prevalent at top tables at high level events. I feel we kinda got off track from the original post about "Best/most powerful builds", into a deathstar discussion, but I have found often that they aren't really the pinnacle of strength in most army books, beaten out in scenario play with good players. A lot of books have very powerful lists that can be built, regardless of overall strength of the book, but those lists from the newer books at the end of 8th edition tend to take the cake for me. Playing a well-built list from pretty much any book should give you a decent chance at winning, but you will definitely be at a handicap against top tier lists from top tier books. Agree with the post and wish I could give you an extra like for the brilliant username. Notorious GIB indeed. If you don't know now you know...
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Post by midnightfox0083 on May 22, 2020 15:21:23 GMT
The other issue with a lot of these deathstars that end up costing ~50% of an army list is their vulnerability to being redirected, chaffed up, and possibly tar pitted. Good players will identify pretty quick that their army can or cannot handle the deathstar and then play accordingly. In battles where people just march forward and charge, the stars work pretty well, but there is a reason that they were less prevalent at top tables at high level events. I feel we kinda got off track from the original post about "Best/most powerful builds", into a deathstar discussion, but I have found often that they aren't really the pinnacle of strength in most army books, beaten out in scenario play with good players. A lot of books have very powerful lists that can be built, regardless of overall strength of the book, but those lists from the newer books at the end of 8th edition tend to take the cake for me. Playing a well-built list from pretty much any book should give you a decent chance at winning, but you will definitely be at a handicap against top tier lists from top tier books. This is a great post that covers some of my feelings on the subject as well.
Yup, most Star lists tended to get a total of ~104 points off my Skaven(2x 52 point Slave units force fed down the Star's throat) while the actually effective parts of the list picked up enough points off the rest of their "army" to win. The amount of people who still refuse to believe that it's possible astounds me and leads me to believe their metas didn't use terrain and just charged their lines at each other.
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