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Post by vonscholte on Sept 12, 2020 8:43:45 GMT
Hi Everyone,
Im sure this has come up before, but at my club we are divided on whether the Terrorgheist's Death Shriek line of sight is limited to its forward arc, or as its eyes are on the sides of its head it can pretty much shoot 360 degrees. Is there an FAQ or how do people interpret the rules?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 12, 2020 20:07:29 GMT
There is no FAQ, but the rules as such give enough guidance.
Vampire Counts AB p. 48: "A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. This attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact."
First of all, forward arc does not automatically imply LOS and vice versa. They are two distinct and independent requirements.
Secondly, there is a difference between a shooting attack by a missile weapon and a special attack in the Shooting phase. The former requires both forward arc and LoS, the latter depends on the specific rules of that special attack. Since the special rule of the Death Shriek only requires LoS, well - it only requires LoS.
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 13, 2020 5:40:00 GMT
Just adding for reference the line of sight rule from brb:
”For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target.”
WARHAMMER RULEBOOK
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Post by rahotep75 on Sept 15, 2020 3:57:25 GMT
Interesting. While I knew that something could be in your forward arc and out of LOS, due to terrain or whatever, I suppose I never considered that something could be in LOS but out of the forward arc, due to the positioning of the specific model’s eyes. In this case, I would point out that the LOS wording quoted by strutsagget does state “its eyes”. Wouldn’t that mean that a target of the terrorgheist would need to be seen by both eyes, to have LOS? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 15, 2020 11:32:46 GMT
Grammatically, it can mean either a line drawn from both eyes or a line drawn from any eye. Given the position of the eyes on the Terrorgheist (and other models), I think it is simply impossible to draw a line from both eyes to a target. Hence, the second interpretation must be applied here.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Sept 15, 2020 19:55:14 GMT
With the intention of playing devil's advocate, some models, like the Troglodon, don't have eyes at all. And it too has a shooting attack.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 15, 2020 20:26:05 GMT
I am not sure, if the Troglodon is a case in point, though. As in the real world, there are creatures that have eyes, but little to no eyesight.
Lizardmen AB p. 37: "These creatures are virtually blind, but hunt using senses other than sight." The "virtually" indicates they have eyes, but cannot see very much, just like moles.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Sept 16, 2020 2:35:38 GMT
I am not sure, if the Troglodon is a case in point, though. As in the real world, there are creatures that have eyes, but little to no eyesight. Lizardmen AB p. 37: "These creatures are virtually blind, but hunt using senses other than sight." The "virtually" indicates they have eyes, but cannot see very much, just like moles. Which is fair enough, but my point is the actual physical model has no eyes. Consequently, in game terms, you could never establish true line of sight using eyes that it does not have. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 16, 2020 20:28:13 GMT
Well, at least the original poster seems to have identified eyes on the model. That would be in accordance with the fluff: "A Terrorgheist's vision is poor" (Vampire Counts AB p. 48). Strictly speaking, a lot of Undead units do not have eyes, just eye sockets.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Sept 18, 2020 23:49:21 GMT
Well, at least the original poster seems to have identified eyes on the model. That would be in accordance with the fluff: "A Terrorgheist's vision is poor" (Vampire Counts AB p. 48). Strictly speaking, a lot of Undead units do not have eyes, just eye sockets. I agree with you that in the case of undead, the eye sockets would constitute as the "eyes" of the model for the purpose of determining true line of sight. What would you do in the (admittedly rare) case of the Troglodon, which has no eyes or eye sockets? Would you use... - the location where the eyes would typically be located?
- its quill-like whiskers that it uses to track motion?
- its forked tongue that it uses to taste the air? (although there is a second building option that replaces this with the venom it is spitting)
- its nostrils that it uses to smell?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 19, 2020 11:26:48 GMT
It is certainly true that the rules for the Troglodon are silent on the matter. For practical purposes, I would use the eyes of the rider, given that "A Troglodon and its Skink Oracle Rider have their own characteristics, but are treated as a single model," and that "we assume the Skink Oracle Rider to be in complete control of the beast" (Lizardmen AB p. 37).
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Post by mottdon on Sept 22, 2020 16:58:15 GMT
I must admit, this thread has been a fascinating discussion to read! Excellent insights! (Pun intended)
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