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Post by Naitsabes on Sept 25, 2020 21:04:38 GMT
Taking stock recently, I realized that I am closing in on a playable Undead Army, at least in terms of model numbers. So, time to sponge some knowledge off your collective brains! Like with all my armies, style over substance is the motto, that being said I like to put up enough of a fight so the games are enjoyable. I am using the Undead Legion rules (but sticking with 25% Lord for old time's sake). For now I want to stay away from Vampires and 'fleshy' undead (zombies, ghouls etc.). My long-term plan is unending hordes of skeletons lorded over by Arkhan on his End Times mount. But, first things first. Below is what I have painted, didn't add in magic items. What should I add to bring this up to a 2k all-comers army? Thinking a second necromancer is pretty key. also maybe a mounted wight king to go with the black knights? What could go after war machines (direwolves are fleshy after all)? maybe another unit of TK light cav? or hexwraiths? My basic, non-surprising approach would be infantry in the center (increasing in numbers for my magic will always work perfectly) holding up stuff. and morghast/knights coming in to save the day (or rather night). ++ End Times (Undead Legions (2014)) [1,612pts] +++ Lords +Master Necromancer [220pts]: Lore of the Vampires, Master of the Dead, Wizard Level 4 + Heroes +Cairn Wraith [60pts]Wight King [110pts]: Battle Standard Bearer + Core +Skeleton Archers [72pts]: 12x Skeleton Archers Skeleton Horse Archers [70pts]: 5x Skeleton Horse Archers Skeleton Warriors [230pts]: Champion, Musician, 40x Skeleton Warrior, Standard Bearer Skeleton Warriors [230pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer . 40x Skeleton Warrior: 40x Spears + Rare +Morghast Archai [180pts]: 2x Morghast Archai + Special +Black Knights [290pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer . 10x Black Knight: 10x Barding, 10x Lances Corpse Cart [105pts]: Balefire Spirit Host [45pts]: Spirt Host ++ Total: [1,612pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by Darnok on Sept 26, 2020 7:31:03 GMT
Warning: I have only very little practical gaming experience. More of an armchair general here - with hours and hours of online tactica reading though. Having said that, I wonder about some things.
First of all: if you include shooting elements, why so little? Those few shots maybe force a panic test in small redirecting units every now and then - if you're lucky. As it is it looks halfhearted to me. I don't think you have to go all in either, but doubling the current shooty units would have more of a real impact and give you flexibility and more options in deployment and during battle.
Second thing: no proper fighters yet. Morghasts and Black Knights are (again) only halfway there in my opinion. The Morghasts can tip the balance of a fight in your favour, but won't win any meaningful engagement on their own. The Black Knights would need a Wight King to become a real hammer. I also think there should be a fighty character in each of the big skeleton blocks, so I would suggest one more Wight on foot.
Third: what are your ideas on expanding the list? A Mortis Shrine would make thematic sense, as would chariots and a Black Coach (convert some BIG chariot) - think Barrow Wights. I also get the tactical idea with the Corpse Cart, would suggest some counts-as conversion though: the CC is as "fleshy undead" as it gets! Again, some chariot themed conversion should work well.
Again, it's all theory here. Maybe you find some of it helpful anyway. I'm already looking forward to where this goes, please give us some playtest reports soon!
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Post by knoffles on Sept 27, 2020 2:26:39 GMT
If you want more skeleton based then a couple of skull catapults might work and give you that long range firepower. I’m also a big fan of the scorpion model and the tbts rule gives you some addition tactical flexibility with it.
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Post by Naitsabes on Sept 27, 2020 5:02:10 GMT
Warning: I have only very little practical gaming experience. More of an armchair general here - with hours and hours of online tactica reading though. Having said that, I wonder about some things.
First of all: if you include shooting elements, why so little? Those few shots maybe force a panic test in small redirecting units every now and then - if you're lucky. As it is it looks halfhearted to me. I don't think you have to go all in either, but doubling the current shooty units would have more of a real impact and give you flexibility and more options in deployment and during battle.
Second thing: no proper fighters yet. Morghasts and Black Knights are (again) only halfway there in my opinion. The Morghasts can tip the balance of a fight in your favour, but won't win any meaningful engagement on their own. The Black Knights would need a Wight King to become a real hammer. I also think there should be a fighty character in each of the big skeleton blocks, so I would suggest one more Wight on foot.
Third: what are your ideas on expanding the list? A Mortis Shrine would make thematic sense, as would chariots and a Black Coach (convert some BIG chariot) - think Barrow Wights. I also get the tactical idea with the Corpse Cart, would suggest some counts-as conversion though: the CC is as "fleshy undead" as it gets! Again, some chariot themed conversion should work well.
Again, it's all theory here. Maybe you find some of it helpful anyway. I'm already looking forward to where this goes, please give us some playtest reports soon!
Thanks Darnok. I've played a grand total of two games at 1k with these undead (back when the world wasn't in turmoil). And also not very many recent games against undead either. so, it's all about finding my bearings at the moment. I guess I like the 'little bit of everything' approach. The shooting I see mostly as useful against fast cav and other pesky things (from charmed shield to warhounds...can you tell which army I often face?). Doesn't take very much shooting for that. Bringing more I am not convinced will do me good. S3 has its limits. I like the wight king with the black knights. in fact, I think I am settled on doing that. Need to brush up how that messes with the black knights almost-but-not-quite ethereal rule. Another foot wight would be nice. But I don't think I will have the points for that at 2k since a secondary necromancer seems like a must. so yes, the heavy lifting fighting-wise needs to come from the knights. The morghasts are actually no slouches in combat and their aura helps quite a bit in keeping everything together. on a good day anyway. I did spruce up my corpse cart with skeleton bits. but you are right, the model is quite fleshy. Longer term I do want to make a full-blown conversion. Lastly, it might be while before I get a chance to play, so no, no playtest soon, unfortunately. plenty time to finish up the painting. If you want more skeleton based then a couple of skull catapults might work and give you that long range firepower. I’m also a big fan of the scorpion model and the tbts rule gives you some addition tactical flexibility with it. Catapults! I think it would fit in with the army (don't know about two at 2k). but a bit hard to find the models. the TK version has become an overpriced collector's item, the old one is a bit too wimpy. Has anybody held the AoS version in their hands? it might have potential, it's just a bit weird and maybe too big. The mantic version looks okay in some pictures, terrible in others (like a lot of mantic stuff). not sure what to do. The scorpion is an interesting idea. Do I have room in 2K for something so fun that may not show up (in time)? I think it would depend on how strong the rest of the army shapes up to be. As you say it is rather flexible from dealing with war machines to scaring characters, lots of uses. Thanks for the feedback. exactly what I was hoping for.
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Post by Darnok on Sept 27, 2020 10:30:59 GMT
The Mantic cataput is a cheap option, and I guess with some VC bits you could hide some of the uglier features. I guess you get what you pay for. Having said that: I still consider it a reasonable option. Remember that it is about the same size of th original GW Skull Catapult from the early 90s.
The AoS skull catapult fits the TK original pretty well, and sure is a great model - also quite expensive and huge. Not sure if you are comfortable with the size, this one sits on a 170mm oval base:
Have you thought about using other AoS models for "count as"-units? The Kavalos Deathriders could work as skeleton versions of Blood Knights...
... and the Gothizzar Harvester works well for the giant:
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Post by Darnok on Sept 27, 2020 16:26:25 GMT
P.S.: I just found one of the 5th edition Undead catapults among my stuff. Don't know if you are interested.
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Post by Naitsabes on Sept 27, 2020 17:04:46 GMT
P.S.: I just found one of the 5th edition Undead catapults among my stuff. Don't know if you are interested.
I would but, I am in the US so shipping kills any kind of deal.
I think the Mortek Crawler has potential. The 'building from bones' look is what I want. The swing arm down helps a bit with size. I should probably start prowling ebay looking for a banged up built some 12year old abandoned as a restore to greatness project. and look for a mantic one as well as a short term solution.
Your blood knight idea is a good one. I will put that on a mental shelf until I expand the army beyond 2k.
Lastly, Mr. Crotch-skeleton gets a 'no'! Come on, Darnok, I thought we were on the same page
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Post by Darnok on Sept 27, 2020 19:23:34 GMT
Dangit, shipping to the US kills that one indeed. As for Mr. Collecting-Bones-Penis: nothing a proper armour plate can't fix with ease.
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 5, 2020 6:34:57 GMT
alright. I bought the Mantic catapult. it's small, I think I can hobby it up a bit with bigger wheels. so, this puts me at 2k. Here is my first attempt:
++ Standard (Undead Legions (2014)) [1,996pts] +++ Lords +Master Necromancer [290pts]: Lore of the Vampires, Master of the Dead, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: AB - Book of Arkhan, BRB - Talisman of Preservation + Heroes +Cairn Wraith [60pts]Necromancer [125pts]: Lore of the Vampires, Wizard Level 2 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll Wight King [135pts]: Battle Standard Bearer . Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Sword of Battle Wight King [112pts]: Great Weapon, Skeletal Steed . Magic Items: BRB - Dragonhelm + Core +Skeleton Archers [60pts]: 10x Skeleton Archers Skeleton Horse Archers [70pts]: 5x Skeleton Horse Archers Skeleton Warriors (VC) [205pts]: Champion, Musician, 35x Skeleton Warrior, Standard Bearer Skeleton Warriors (VC) [205pts]: Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer . 35x Skeleton Warrior: 35x Spears + Special +Black Knights [269pts]: 9x Black Knight . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Banner of the Barrows Corpse Cart [120pts]: Unholy Lodestone Spirit Host [45pts]: Spirt Host + Rare +Morghast Archai [180pts]: 2x Morghast Archai Screaming Skull Catapult [120pts]: Skulls of the Foe ++ Total: [1,996pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
Any thoughts on the magic item selection? Do I need to the black periapt? had problems fitting that in and also think that is a finer point and I will have my hands full just remembering the rest of the VC rules.
The mounted wight is now only armor 3+ but barding would slow down the whole unit. hope is tough+extra wound can see him through. Could I get away with a smaller starting size for the skeleton melee units?
...so many questions. hope you all have answers!
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 19, 2020 17:32:50 GMT
...so many questions. hope you all have answers!
anybody? In the meantime, I painted away. Catapult done. Black Knights very very close to done. Soon, mortals will tremble (they better!). I'd still be interested in feedback on the 2k list above. Also, how do I take this to 2500pts? The only models I have sitting around are 20 grave guard. seems a bit too few. so I think I need to start trawling ebay. besides grave guard just what would I be looking for? Kavalos Deathriders and Scorpion as suggested are on the list and, Painting/modelling-wise would be neat to do a unit of chariots, led by a glorious King (technically Tomb but Wight looking). A bit more hitting power can't hurt, right?
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Post by gorfung on Oct 19, 2020 17:52:51 GMT
i almost wouldnt run archers, and just grab zombies since they can tarpit more then the archers could kill
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 20, 2020 17:13:41 GMT
i almost wouldnt run archers, and just grab zombies since they can tarpit more then the archers could kill
I guess I am hoping for the archers to keep fast cav and the like honest. I have two blocks of skeletons. would a third infantry block be useful?
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Post by gorfung on Oct 20, 2020 17:51:08 GMT
You can use your summons too keep em honest in the magic phase most players let the low raise dead spells go through, the archers will do 2 hits on average with what 1 would maybe going though before saves. Dire wolfs would be more effective in that role too then archers.
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Post by sedge on Oct 20, 2020 20:19:22 GMT
Advice time! I'm too late to give modelling advice on the Mantic catapult, as I've seen you've built/painted it already... I would have suggested blinging it up with some VC shields, changing the "arm" (or hand?) part of it as the single skull just looks goofy, and also using regular GW skellies for the crew -- I did that, as I really hated the Mantic model stock, but if you're happy with it, never mind. Black Knights - they need barding and lances. Heavy cavalry in 8th edition is mediocre; medium cavalry is crap. You need these guys packing S6 on the charge (which their Spectral Steeds rule helps them to get). You need them to have a 2+ save or your expensive hammer die far too easily. Barding doesn't slow them (see Spectral Steed rule), and nor does having a Wight King on barded skeletal steed in the unit. Banner of the Barrows is a great choice for them, given you don't have Grave Guard to give it to. Your mounted Wight King needs his steed to be Barded too. I've got lots of loadouts in my Vampire Counts tactica - the main point is that you should give him something that means he can reliably inflict damage when your knights are reduced to S4. So the Sword of Might or Ogre Blade are the weapons of choice (not a lance unless you're being cheap) and then a simple Enchanted Shield... ah, you have that elsewhere; Dragonhelm and shield then. That gets you a 1+ save (great with 3 wounds and toughness 5) and a constant S5 or S6. Other Wight King - Sword of Battle is mediocre; you need strength not an extra attack. Sword of Might (or Ogre Blade) will serve you better. Or if you want this guy to be really hard to kill, the Nightshroud is amazing. You can combine that with a great weapon, as even with just a 4+ save the Nightshroud means you'll only usually be facing S3 or S4. Necros look good, as does your core. Corpse Cart - if you're looking to save points, change the Unholy Lodestone to Balefire. Spirit Host, Morghast Archai and Screaming Skull Catapult are all good. Cairn Wraiths I struggle to justify based on effectiveness, but based on how cool the model is... that's another matter. What your list feels like it's lacking a bit is more damage dealers -- everything is riding on your Black Knights. Morghast Archai are good but can't beat a ranked unit themself. Bear in mind if you throw the Morghasts into the flank of a unit engaged with your Skellies, your opponent will target your puny skeletons and beat you on combat resolution through lots of kills -- causing your Morghasts to crumble. Don't make that mistake. Also, extra wizards (scratch this if you're using the proper Undead Legions rules which means no crumble) -- Vampire Counts need as many wizards as possible; 2 is a risk, 3 is more comfortable What to expand your list with? 1) Grave Guard. The most obvious bony addition. They're great. Take 30+ of them with great weapons (sword/shield are decent too but not nearly as good). 2) Another Necromancer. On the Corpse Cart, maybe? 3) Chaff - Dire Wolves or additional Spirit Hosts. Or Fell Bats. Or more Skeleton Horsemen/Archers. 4) Hexwraiths - fun ghostly cavalry. 5) I like Darnok's Blood Knights suggestion. And Black Coach one. 6) Mortis Engines are good. If you're going down the Tomb Kings conversions/kidneys route: 1) Chariots. Lots of them. 2) Tomb Prince/King lets you do all sorts of nasty tricks with Grave Guard (increasing their weapon skill to match your character's) 3) Constructs - if they fit with your aesthetic? Plenty of them are relatively good. 4) Snakes - the Stalkers and Necropolis Knights are both good.
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 21, 2020 1:29:26 GMT
You can use your summons too keep em honest in the magic phase most players let the low raise dead spells go through, the archers will do 2 hits on average with what 1 would maybe going though before saves. Dire wolfs would be more effective in that role too then archers.
archers always hit on 5s so that's 3.3 hits which have a decent chance of causing two wounds (and hence a panic check) on an average light cav. still, I need to wrap my head around this raising of units a bit more. that does give some options. true. Archers will be under watch and may get removed from the list with all the mercy a necromancer can muster should they not perform.
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