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Post by lordofskullpass on Oct 22, 2020 18:19:05 GMT
Hello there fellow EEFLers! I’ve been eyeing Beastmen of late as a sixth army for my collection to go alongside my three Order armies and two other Destruction ones. While I’m more of a thematic player who mainly wants to collect a force that looks cool and isn’t too worried about overall power level, I still have noticed how Beastmen have been poorly-treated by GW when it came to writing their rules, not only through GW ‘conveniently’ missing out on giving them an 8th Edition book, but also through omission of some of their units in the 7th Edition book that were instead given to one of GW’s teacher’s pets, the Warriors of Chaos. With this in mind, I’ve been planning to predominantly use the 7th Edition book, but also for 8th Edition use the following extras: - The updated rules for Ambush from Glottkin, because the 7th version was pointless
- Give my Beasts the ability to take Marks, also using the Glottkin points values
- Allow Beastmen to take Chaos Ogres, Chaos Trolls, Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths using their rules and points in the Warriors of Chaos book (but ignoring the Eye of the Gods rule for the Ogres as they didn’t have that mechanic in the Beastmen 6th book).
I explicitly don’t want to use the full extent of the Legions of Chaos list because that just combines all the special rules from all three main Chaos armies and uses the End Times army selection rules - I don’t want to have to roll on the Reign of Chaos table every turn because that’s a mechanic for Chaos Daemons, I don’t want to use the Eye of the Gods table because that’s a Warriors of Chaos rule and I don’t want to use the End Times army selection rules. Essentially what I’m trying to do is give back to Beastmen what was lost from the 6th Edition book (using the Legions of Chaos points and rules purely because they work better with 8th) while keeping it a specifically Beastmen-only list, to give them essentially their equivalent of an 8th release, just as Skaven got a few extras from Thanquol to give them their equivalent of an 8th release.
What do you think my fellow Beastlords? |
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Post by tileag on Oct 22, 2020 18:44:47 GMT
You may want to look at the warhammer armies project beastmen book as it does a lot of what youre talking about (the one thing i dont like is raiders minimum size increase to 10). Beastmen are by far my most played army, both casually and in tournaments/leagues. I can safely say they for sure felt like a half finished army book (7th ed). I thought i heard that the guy working on it left the project so someone had to come in at the last minute and fix things and even later admitted the points values werent the best
The glotkin rule updates fix some of these issues, but the monsters and minotaurs are still overcosted for what they do and the other entries that should be there arent.
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Post by tileag on Oct 22, 2020 18:51:40 GMT
Despite all of this, i find beastmen a blast to play and the army painted up looks great.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 23, 2020 1:32:44 GMT
Looks fine to me, the current ambush is rubbish so we’d tend to use the standard one from the BSB. I’m not sure how that differs from the ET book. Uk comps tend to currently let Beastmen take marks for free but using pts from Glottkin seems entirely reasonable I’m also a big fan of allowing dragon Ogres and Shaggoths in the lists (not that I own any but it might mean you actually see them once in a while). I’ve also found myself using Beastmen more than any other army over the last few years. I just find them so much fun. More than any other army I find myself using the less optimised choices (I’m very partial to mounting characters on Razorgor chariots). My latest battle rep will feature a double Ghorgon, as tileag said, a wildly overcosted unit, just like the Minotaurs. (The rep should be posted within a week or so) |
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Post by tileag on Oct 23, 2020 16:35:00 GMT
Looks fine to me, the current ambush is rubbish so we’d tend to use the standard one from the BSB. I’m not sure how that differs from the ET book. Uk comps tend to currently let Beastmen take marks for free but using pts from Glottkin seems entirely reasonable I’m also a big fan of allowing dragon Ogres and Shaggoths in the lists (not that I own any but it might mean you actually see them once in a while). I’ve also found myself using Beastmen more than any other army over the last few years. I just find them so much fun. More than any other army I find myself using the less optimised choices (I’m very partial to mounting characters on Razorgor chariots). My latest battle rep will feature a double Ghorgon, as tileag said, a wildly overcosted unit, just like the Minotaurs. (The rep should be posted within a week or so) I love double ghorgon builds! Cant wait |
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Post by Lizards_of_Renown on Oct 23, 2020 17:22:53 GMT
Hello there fellow EEFLers! I’ve been eyeing Beastmen of late as a sixth army for my collection to go alongside my three Order armies and two other Destruction ones. While I’m more of a thematic player who mainly wants to collect a force that looks cool and isn’t too worried about overall power level, I still have noticed how Beastmen have been poorly-treated by GW when it came to writing their rules, not only through GW ‘conveniently’ missing out on giving them an 8th Edition book, but also through omission of some of their units in the 7th Edition book that were instead given to one of GW’s teacher’s pets, the Warriors of Chaos. With this in mind, I’ve been planning to predominantly use the 7th Edition book, but also for 8th Edition use the following extras: - The updated rules for Ambush from Glottkin, because the 7th version was pointless
- Give my Beasts the ability to take Marks, also using the Glottkin points values
- Allow Beastmen to take Chaos Ogres, Chaos Trolls, Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths using their rules and points in the Warriors of Chaos book (but ignoring the Eye of the Gods rule for the Ogres as they didn’t have that mechanic in the Beastmen 6th book).
I explicitly don’t want to use the full extent of the Legions of Chaos list because that just combines all the special rules from all three main Chaos armies and uses the End Times army selection rules - I don’t want to have to roll on the Reign of Chaos table every turn because that’s a mechanic for Chaos Daemons, I don’t want to use the Eye of the Gods table because that’s a Warriors of Chaos rule and I don’t want to use the End Times army selection rules. Essentially what I’m trying to do is give back to Beastmen what was lost from the 6th Edition book (using the Legions of Chaos points and rules purely because they work better with 8th) while keeping it a specifically Beastmen-only list, to give them essentially their equivalent of an 8th release, just as Skaven got a few extras from Thanquol to give them their equivalent of an 8th release.
What do you think my fellow Beastlords? Well, I don't have any comment on the rules you're using. That will honestly be up to whoever you're playing with and agreeing upon the terms. But I thinks it's brilliant you're starting to collect them! Was seriously thinking about it myself! |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 13, 2021 18:17:45 GMT
Another idea I’ve had about giving Beastmen a much-needed buff is the idea of allowing Gors and regular Ungors to take the Skirmish special rule at +1 or 2 points per model, to simultaneously pay homage to the skirmishing ‘mixed herds’ of 6th Edition, give Beastmen more of a differentiation from Greenskins (who have only one Skirmishing unit that’s a Special choice), give your Core troops a bit of extra protection against missile attacks and more accurately represent the unruly nature and skill at traversing woodland terrain that Beastmen have. I think Eliasson already has included this in his unofficial update, but again I’d be interested to hear everyone’s thoughts about using this with the 7th Edition book and the other amendments I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
Fellow Beastlords, I eagerly await your response!
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Post by Horace on Apr 13, 2021 21:16:52 GMT
Does it not make sense for beastmen to roll on the eye of the gods table? Particularly if they're marked?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 14, 2021 6:23:15 GMT
Does it not make sense for beastmen to roll on the eye of the gods table? Particularly if they're marked? I can see how it could make sense with their lore, but that’s a strictly Warriors of Chaos mechanic in regular Fantasy, and I don’t want to include anything non-Beastmen-oriented from the Legions of Chaos rules because I want to play Beastmen, not Legions of Chaos. |
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Post by tileag on Apr 19, 2021 13:43:54 GMT
Does it not make sense for beastmen to roll on the eye of the gods table? Particularly if they're marked? I can see how it could make sense with their lore, but that’s a strictly Warriors of Chaos mechanic in regular Fantasy, and I don’t want to include anything non-Beastmen-oriented from the Legions of Chaos rules because I want to play Beastmen, not Legions of Chaos. Yeah i feel like beastmen should of gotten their own thing instead of the eye of the gods chart. What that thing is im not sure though |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 21, 2021 18:20:33 GMT
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Post by markdienekes on Apr 21, 2021 22:11:28 GMT
I think it is a good one, they shouldn't have any trouble passing through wooded terrain (I'm really a 7th edition player, so that would really help me with the movement!) and fits with the lore. I'd say trial it and see.  |
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Post by knoffles on Apr 22, 2021 6:58:56 GMT
It doesn’t harm giving them more options. I’m not sure I’d necessarily take it on either. I never take standard Ungor as it is (mainly as I don’t have the models but find them just inferior to Gor) and yes skirmish might mean fielding a smaller unit to harass but I’d rather take harpies or razorgor.
I’ll be honest, I was never a fan of the mixed units in the previous book. I could likely be in the minority there!
My issue with skirmish for combat units in 8th, is they don’t get ranks, can’t disrupt, so limits their use.
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Post by KevinC on Apr 24, 2021 13:53:51 GMT
In my view, the 8th edition Beastmen book made Beastmen too similar to Orcs & Goblins. The best army list for Beastmen, and which made them a unique army, was the 6th edition Beasts of Chaos army book. I wrote an 8th edition errata for that book to allow its use in 8th edition. You can check it out here (you have to scroll down): Beasts of Chaos |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 28, 2021 13:57:43 GMT
In my view, the 8th edition Beastmen book made Beastmen too similar to Orcs & Goblins. The best army list for Beastmen, and which made them a unique army, was the 6th edition Beasts of Chaos army book. I wrote an 8th edition errata for that book to allow its use in 8th edition. You can check it out here (you have to scroll down): Beasts of ChaosHey Kev, thanks for pointing that out, I’ve enjoyed reading it. I certainly agree that Beastmen had a more unique flavour in 6th Edition and updating these rules for 8th plus adding the 7th Edition units would be very much like what GW did for (funnily enough) Orcs and Goblins (their 8th Animosity rules were a repeat of their 6th Edition rules rather than carrying over the 7th Edition rules). Your addendum covers a lot of the main points, but I have a few points I’d like to add: - Personally I’d prefer to see the 7th Edition rules for Primal Fury over what is simply pretty much army-wide Hatred, mainly because Primal Fury allows for hatred in combat turns after the first, it has some variable outcomes to keep it balanced, and also because calling your rule ‘Children of Chaos’ becomes pretty pointless when it just gives most Beastmen units Hatred - it’d be better to simply state that the units have Hatred in their special rules section - whereas Primal Fury is a unique rule different from normal Hatred. Not to mention that one of the Storm of Magic Cataclysm spells for Beastmen revolves around Primal Fury. With regards to Malagor’s Icon of Vilification rule, it could be amended to allow all friendly units within 6” of him to automatically pass Primal Fury tests.
- With the three named Lord choices from the 6th book, Throgg and Kholek (who should appear in a Beastmen army as Dragon Ogres and Chaos Trolls are there, I have no problem with that) plus your rules for Malagor inspired by the 7th book, we have 6 named Lord choices. That's fine, but conversely just from your addendum we only have 2 named Hero choices (Ungrol and Ghorros), which leaves an imbalance between named Lords and Heroes - most armies have a roughly equal number of named Lords and Heroes. I’m surprised you didn’t include Taurox, Moonclaw and Slugtongue in your addendum, because these would be great to add as Hero choices. If you didn’t include them originally because you weren’t able to think of ways in which they could be made decent (especially in the case of Moonclaw) I’d be happy to work on improving these.
- Given that you're allowing the Ghorgon as presented in Storm of Magic to be used, wouldn't it make sense then for its version of the Bloodgreed rule to apply to Minotaurs, Doombulls, Gorebulls and Tzaanbulls (as it does for the former three in the 7th book)?
- Given that the Raiders special rule is back in full form, I’d recommend changing the name of your Ungor-exclusive Core unit to something like Ungor Hunters to avoid confusion with the name of this army special rule.
- It’s great that you’ve included rules for Tzaangor Skyfires, but there aren’t any rules for Tzaangor Enlightened, which can be built from the same kit. They’re armed with spears where the Skyfires are armed with bows.
- I like the idea of a Minotaur shaman, but is there any lore basis behind the idea of Tzeentch Minotaurs being able to cast magic? Unless it's just a new unit creation of yours designed to expand the Minotaurs, in which case that's understandable. I'm planning to write rules for a Beastman unit devised by the guy who inspired a lot of my Albion work, called the Thickskull. You can see the illustration here: www.deviantart.com/dewitteillustration/art/Beastmen-Thickskull-844492851
- Given the Cockatrice has been included in the AoS Beastmen book, perhaps Beastmen could include it as a special choice, given that it's currently only used in Storm of Magic and it's another of the myriad Chaos creatures that exist in the Warhammer world?
- It's a pity that some of the mechanics from the 7th Edition book that did make the Beastmen unique, like the Shard of the Herdstone and the Despoilers rule for Bestigors won't make it through if the 6th Edition book is used as the basis. Perhaps these could be added, in the case of the Despoilers special rule giving a slight points increase for Bestigors?
- I do like the Mixed Herd idea and it would be great to see it return, but my main problem is that in the 6th Edition book Ungors had 25mm bases like Gors, whereas now they have 20mm bases. Would this matter too much in 8th Edition, where the rulebook specifically states that characters on 25mm bases in 20mm units should be put next to the unit rather than in it? I know you could simply form the Ungors into their own ranks behind the Gors, but what would happen, for instance, if there was only a single Gor in the back ranks? Would the first rank of Ungors be able to move forward?
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