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Post by markdienekes on Aug 6, 2022 11:04:46 GMT
Doesn't it kill the figure outright too, or has the chance to? Just checked, it if the model fails a ld test, it is slain outright. Quite powerful really. Where are you seeing that? The Blade of Realities in my 8th ed Lizardman book says nothing about "if the model fails a ld test, it is slain outright." Haha, you know what, I was reading the 7th edition entry (must remember this is an 8th edition forum!). Bloody dangerous thing in that edition! |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 6, 2022 11:27:43 GMT
Doesn't it kill the figure outright too, or has the chance to? Just checked, it if the model fails a ld test, it is slain outright. Quite powerful really. Where are you seeing that? The Blade of Realities in my 8th ed Lizardman book says nothing about "if the model fails a ld test, it is slain outright." I think markdienekes is still living in 7th Edition on that one  , because that is part of its rules in the 7th Ed book, but in 8th it was changed simply to ‘No Armour saves or Ward Saves can be taken against wounds inflicted with this weapon’. A bit of a nerf really given the 7th Edition version ignored Ward Saves too, alongside Regeneration Saves, whenever the enemy model failed their Leadership test, and was cheaper at 75 points compared to 100 for the 8th Edition one, but there we go. EDIT: Ha, only just noticed markdienekes had already acknowledged as such, but his post was on the next page and didn’t see it until I just posted! |
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Post by markdienekes on Aug 6, 2022 11:35:30 GMT
Where are you seeing that? The Blade of Realities in my 8th ed Lizardman book says nothing about "if the model fails a ld test, it is slain outright." I think markdienekes is still living in 7th Edition on that one , because that is part of its rules in the 7th Ed book, but in 8th it was changed simply to ‘No Armour saves or Ward Saves can be taken against wounds inflicted with this weapon’. A bit of a nerf really given the 7th Edition version ignored Ward Saves too, alongside Regeneration Saves, whenever the enemy model failed their Leadership test, and was cheaper at 75 points compared to 100 for the 8th Edition one, but there we go. EDIT: Ha, only just noticed markdienekes had already acknowledged as such, but his post was on the next page and didn’t see it until I just posted! I don't know what edition I'm in anymore!!!  |
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 6, 2022 12:50:17 GMT
But the Fellblade from Skaven 7th is strength 10 re-roll ward saves, D6 wounds and also 100 points. Mind you, you can make a warlord reasonably tough and they will be able to hit first in most scenarios. Suppose though for 100 points the primeval club should be better when you consider how vulnerable the beast Lord would be. I always liked the Black Maul as a weapon.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 6, 2022 12:56:49 GMT
What was the spear from Beastmen 6th special character, was that the impaler, it has a good fluff story with fun rules (unless it's being used on you) maybe use that?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 6, 2022 14:21:45 GMT
But the Fellblade from Skaven 7th is strength 10 re-roll ward saves, D6 wounds and also 100 points. Mind you, you can make a warlord reasonably tough and they will be able to hit first in most scenarios. Suppose though for 100 points the primeval club should be better when you consider how vulnerable the beast Lord would be. I always liked the Black Maul as a weapon. I don’t see how you can make a Skaven Warlord tougher than a Beastlord is with the 7th Edition books for both, of both have spent all 100 points on weapons, given how much weaker the Skaven Warlord’s profile is. The only advantage they really get is being able to strike quicker due to higher Initiative, and this is still no help against Elves or the BS OP Lord choices that get to cheat with 50 points of powers/mutations on top of the 100 point Magic Item limit, from the Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos army books. |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 6, 2022 14:23:05 GMT
What was the spear from Beastmen 6th special character, was that the impaler, it has a good fluff story with fun rules (unless it's being used on you) maybe use that? Gorthor’s Spear Impaler had some fun rules in 6th, though I don’t think it was that bad in 7th either. Either version would be cheaper in points than the Primeval Club though because it was never a Ghal Maraz-level weapon. |
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 6, 2022 16:27:17 GMT
[quote author=" lordofskullpass"[/quote]I don’t see how you can make a Skaven Warlord tougher than a Beastlord is with the 7th Edition books for both, of both have spent all 100 points on weapons, given how much weaker the Skaven Warlord’s profile is. The only advantage they really get is being able to strike quicker due to higher Initiative, and this is still no help against Elves or the BS OP Lord choices that get to cheat with 50 points of powers/mutations on top of the 100 point Magic Item limit, from the Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos army books.[/quote] You're right with regards to the OP choices and against elves no use there. But in 7th you the Skaven warlord has access to a bonebreaker as a mount which would increase his wounds, toughness and armour by one. Which is why I felt he'd have the edge potentially over a beast Lord. What were your thoughts? |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 8, 2022 15:47:22 GMT
I don’t see how you can make a Skaven Warlord tougher than a Beastlord is with the 7th Edition books for both, of both have spent all 100 points on weapons, given how much weaker the Skaven Warlord’s profile is. The only advantage they really get is being able to strike quicker due to higher Initiative, and this is still no help against Elves or the BS OP Lord choices that get to cheat with 50 points of powers/mutations on top of the 100 point Magic Item limit, from the Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos army books. You're right with regards to the OP choices and against elves no use there. But in 7th you the Skaven warlord has access to a bonebreaker as a mount which would increase his wounds, toughness and armour by one. Which is why I felt he'd have the edge potentially over a beast Lord. What were your thoughts? It is true a Warlord can access a Bonebreaker, but conversely a Beastlord can access a Razorgor Chariot, which has a similar amount of attack power, an extra wound and a 4+ armour save into the bargain. True, the latter can't join units and is vulnerable to cannon shots, but against non-Cannon armies I would rate it as being more durable than the Bonebreaker. |
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Post by thegoat on Aug 8, 2022 17:44:33 GMT
As you compare these 100 point magic weapons, keep in mind the Skaven Fellblade has a significant random negative effect on the model holding it.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 9, 2022 7:37:19 GMT
As you compare these 100 point magic weapons, keep in mind the Skaven Fellblade has a significant random negative effect on the model holding it. That is very true. I forgot about the razorgore chariot. So what would the Beast lords full armour save be? A warlord on a bone breaker would be 4+ or 3+ with a shield. Skaven do have the warplightning cannon as an answer. However, in a one on one I will agree the beast lord in a chariot has the edge here. Though doesn't that chariot only have a movement of six? So possibly going mano a mano it would come down to who gets the first charge as both would have the same movement 🤔 |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 10, 2022 7:57:51 GMT
That is very true. I forgot about the razorgor chariot. So what would the Beast lords full armour save be? A warlord on a bone breaker would be 4+ or 3+ with a shield. Skaven do have the warplightning cannon as an answer. However, in a one on one I will agree the beast lord in a chariot has the edge here. Though doesn't that chariot only have a movement of six? So possibly going mano a mano it would come down to who gets the first charge as both would have the same movement 🤔 Now I'm not entirely sure how to work out the armour save of a character on a Chariot, because I've never bothered to try it. I assume the Chariot would be treated the same as a Monstrous Mount? If so, then a Beastlord could potentially reach a 1+ armour save if the right Gifts of Chaos and Magic Items are taken (Heavy Armour, Shield, Mounted, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn Helm). If on the other hand you have to default to using the save of the Chariot, then the maximum armour save would of course be 4+. The Razorgor Chariot has a Movement value of 7, and its speed depends on whether you agree to use what is probably one of the worst rules in 8th Edition, which is Chariots not being able to march. What a dumb rule that is, especially if you've played the Total War games where chariots have both a normal and a march move like anything else. I always ignore it when playing my games because it makes very little sense. If you really wanted to reflect the weight of the heavy chariot on the steeds, the steeds could simply suffer a -1 penalty to their Movement like if they were wearing Barding. In any case, it's clear to see that a Beastlord on Razorgor Chariot has more of a punch than a Skaven Warlord on Rat Ogre Bonebreaker, but probably also costs more into the bargain |
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 11, 2022 4:44:34 GMT
Yeah that makes sense. Would have thought his armour save would be 2+, heavy armour mounted in a chariot, would have to check. Not sure about movement, thought not being able to march was a 6th edition thing. Definitely the beast lord does have the punch, I wouldn't write the Warlord off but yes the beast lord should win. I used Khorne chariots back in 6th to devastating effect. In one battle I smashed the chariot into the VC general unit the warriors and horses killed the general and the impact hits decimated the unit then it was game over. I think a good discussion thread about chariots might be in order. Shall I start one.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 11, 2022 19:44:14 GMT
What was the spear from Beastmen 6th special character, was that the impaler, it has a good fluff story with fun rules (unless it's being used on you) maybe use that? Gorthor the Beastlord still has his magic Impaler spear...and I don't want to tread on his hooves...what with him being the Beastlord of Beastlords and all that  |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 11, 2022 20:24:16 GMT
There are some other things in the game which ignore Ward saves. Ie test or die. To the Goat. I thought the discussion was about magic weapons. When I said nothing has that power, I meant no magic weapons. But obviously there is at least one magic weapon that ignores ward saves. So I was wrong in my assertion. Dwarfs also have the option to complete negate ward saves with a magic weapon (runes) albeit only on Daemons iirc. The test or die weapon I was thinking of allowing no ward saves was Galrauch the dragon but that's a special character and one use only so can't exactly compare the points. I wasn't referring to the spells. There is also Lord Skrolk with his Plague Flail of toughness test or die with no save allowed. Anyway it's all cleared up now and I have more to ponder regarding the Lizardmen weapon. So I think that makes 4 weapons total in the game so far which completely ignore Ward saves? Lord Skrolk Galrauch breath Piranha blade Dwarf triple anti Daemon runed weapon. I wonder if there are any more? Imo Bonebreaker (monstrous cav) Skaven Warlord is more durable than a Beastlord due to the extra wound and higher initiative. Razorgor Chariot besides armor save doesn't really make the Beastlord any harder to kill. Anyway I'm getting distracted..back to brainstorming the Primeval club 🤪 I'm thinking now something like the Giant eadbutt rule in addition. No armor or Regeneration saves allowed vs Primeval club in addition to the Leadership strength modifier and any model who takes an unsaved wound cannot attack this round. Means elves etc scoff at it so very hit or miss but somewhat thematic and potentially do a number on things like Shaggoths which could keep getting bonked on the head until they keel over. Thoughts? |
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, because that is part of its rules in the 7th Ed book, but in 8th it was changed simply to ‘No Armour saves or Ward Saves can be taken against wounds inflicted with this weapon’. A bit of a nerf really given the 7th Edition version ignored Ward Saves too, alongside Regeneration Saves, whenever the enemy model failed their Leadership test, and was cheaper at 75 points compared to 100 for the 8th Edition one, but there we go.
