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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 11, 2022 20:31:17 GMT
That is very true. I forgot about the razorgor chariot. So what would the Beast lords full armour save be? A warlord on a bone breaker would be 4+ or 3+ with a shield. Skaven do have the warplightning cannon as an answer. However, in a one on one I will agree the beast lord in a chariot has the edge here. Though doesn't that chariot only have a movement of six? So possibly going mano a mano it would come down to who gets the first charge as both would have the same movement 🤔 Now I'm not entirely sure how to work out the armour save of a character on a Chariot, because I've never bothered to try it. I assume the Chariot would be treated the same as a Monstrous Mount? If so, then a Beastlord could potentially reach a 1+ armour save if the right Gifts of Chaos and Magic Items are taken (Heavy Armour, Shield, Mounted, Gnarled Hide, Ramhorn Helm). If on the other hand you have to default to using the save of the Chariot, then the maximum armour save would of course be 4+. The Razorgor Chariot has a Movement value of 7, and its speed depends on whether you agree to use what is probably one of the worst rules in 8th Edition, which is Chariots not being able to march. What a dumb rule that is, especially if you've played the Total War games where chariots have both a normal and a march move like anything else. I always ignore it when playing my games because it makes very little sense. If you really wanted to reflect the weight of the heavy chariot on the steeds, the steeds could simply suffer a -1 penalty to their Movement like if they were wearing Barding. In any case, it's clear to see that a Beastlord on Razorgor Chariot has more of a punch than a Skaven Warlord on Rat Ogre Bonebreaker, but probably also costs more into the bargain Besides the armor save boost Razorgor chariot doesn't make the Beastlord any more durable and this came up with a hypothetical boosted Primeval club (100 points) vs Bonebreaker Fellblade (100 points) Skaven warlord). Chariots cannot march. We are talking official 8th Edition rulebook here, just potential tweaks to the Beastmen armybook. Skaven Warlord would easily kill the boosted Primeval club Beastlord. Bonebreaker boosts the Warlords stats (toughness and wounds) whereas the Razorgor Chariot doesn't boost the Beastlord stats at all but like the Bonebreaker gives a +1 armor save. That's why I'm saying even if Primeval club gets a massive boost (ie no ward saves allowed vs it) it's still not game breaking due to the Beastlord or Doombull defensive limits.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 11, 2022 20:38:13 GMT
As you compare these 100 point magic weapons, keep in mind the Skaven Fellblade has a significant random negative effect on the model holding it. That is very true. I forgot about the razorgore chariot. So what would the Beast lords full armour save be? A warlord on a bone breaker would be 4+ or 3+ with a shield. Skaven do have the warplightning cannon as an answer. However, in a one on one I will agree the beast lord in a chariot has the edge here. Though doesn't that chariot only have a movement of six? So possibly going mano a mano it would come down to who gets the first charge as both would have the same movement 🤔 Beastlord on Razorgor chariot armed with Primeval club has a maximum armor save if 4+. This is equiped with Heavy armor. No way to get to the 4 wounds a Skaven Bonebreaker lord has or 3+ armor save. If you allow Glottkin marks (I do) then the Primeval club Beastlord can have either a 6+ ward save (Tzeentch) or -1 to hit (Nurgle) Would still get smoked by a Fellblade Bonebreaker Warlord though and be far less useful (ie, no march, no hiding in units). I'm thinking in an actual game scenario the Skaven Lord would 100% be in a unit so the impact hits wouldn't hit it directly. On average dice it would strike and kill the below build Beastlord before the Beastlord could lift its club 😞 Super Primeval Club Tzeentch Beastlord mounted on Razorgor Chariot would cost 400 points.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 12, 2022 15:04:39 GMT
Interesting, though it makes no sense really for a chariot not to be able to march they would just be too useless against any army with even a small amount of artillery. As for the stats it would be the chariots wounds and toughness used so that would depend on how tough a razorgore chariot is if it would make the beast lord more durable. Not really very fair on the beast men, can the chariot be set up as an ambusher?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 12, 2022 17:16:36 GMT
That is very true. I forgot about the razorgore chariot. So what would the Beast lords full armour save be? A warlord on a bone breaker would be 4+ or 3+ with a shield. Skaven do have the warplightning cannon as an answer. However, in a one on one I will agree the beast lord in a chariot has the edge here. Though doesn't that chariot only have a movement of six? So possibly going mano a mano it would come down to who gets the first charge as both would have the same movement 🤔 Beastlord on Razorgor chariot armed with Primeval club has a maximum armor save if 4+. This is equiped with Heavy armor. No way to get to the 4 wounds a Skaven Bonebreaker lord has or 3+ armor save. Well a Razorgor Chariot has 5 wounds compared to the Bonebreaker's 4, and both of those have separate profiles from their riders, both of whom have 3 wounds, so the Warlord wouldn't have his wounds increased to 4 by the Bonebreaker directly. Additionally, the Primeval Club is not a Great Weapon according to its description, so the Beastlord could take a shield to improve his armour save to 3+, as the Skaven Warlord can. Also, how big is a Bonebreaker's base? Because if it's bigger than 40mm (which is likely given it's meant to be a Monster, not Monstrous Infantry), surely that would give it an incompatible base size with Clanrats, meaning it would have to be placed at the side of the unit, and could thus be specifically targeted in the Beastlord's Chariot charge?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 12, 2022 17:21:39 GMT
Interesting, though it makes no sense really for a chariot not to be able to march they would just be too useless against any army with even a small amount of artillery. That's why I ignore such a dumb ruling, 'official' or not. I still follow the rules to the letter 99% of the time, but in such an exceptionally ridiculous circumstance, I have felt there is no other option than to just house rule it out, because common sense should be allowed to prevail in any non-tournament game. Anyone who's played any Total War game and/or ridden in a real-life replica chariot can see how stupid this rule is. As for the stats it would be the chariots wounds and toughness used so that would depend on how tough a razorgore chariot is if it would make the beast lord more durable. Not really very fair on the beast men, can the chariot be set up as an ambusher? No it can't be set up as am Ambusher. It has the same Toughness and as a Bonebreaker and an extra wound, but because monsters and chariots have separate profiles from their riders, I don't think it would be able to stop the Warlord from focusing its attacks on the Beastlord and killing him first.
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 13, 2022 5:19:35 GMT
Also, how big is a Bonebreaker's base? Because if it's bigger than 40mm (which is likely given it's meant to be a Monster, not Monstrous Infantry), surely that would give it an incompatible base size with Clanrats, meaning it would have to be placed at the side of the unit, and could thus be specifically targeted in the Beastlord's Chariot charge? It's a 40mm base and counts as a monstrous cavalry mount, AB rules stipulate it can join the following units, clanrats, stormvermin and rat ogres. You can't specifically target impact hits. Something like that would need to be house ruled. The thing here additionally is that in a complete one on one the impact hits would need to do as much damage as possible, whereas the Warlord only needs to hit the Beast lord once.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 14, 2022 13:35:52 GMT
Interesting, though it makes no sense really for a chariot not to be able to march they would just be too useless against any army with even a small amount of artillery. That's why I ignore such a dumb ruling, 'official' or not. I still follow the rules to the letter 99% of the time, but in such an exceptionally ridiculous circumstance, I have felt there is no other option than to just house rule it out, because common sense should be allowed to prevail in any non-tournament game. Anyone who's played any Total War game and/or ridden in a real-life replica chariot can see how stupid this rule is. As for the stats it would be the chariots wounds and toughness used so that would depend on how tough a razorgore chariot is if it would make the beast lord more durable. Not really very fair on the beast men, can the chariot be set up as an ambusher? No it can't be set up as am Ambusher. It has the same Toughness and as a Bonebreaker and an extra wound, but because monsters and chariots have separate profiles from their riders, I don't think it would be able to stop the Warlord from focusing its attacks on the Beastlord and killing him first. Correct regarding the shield for a 3+ save. For some reason I was thinking the Primeval club had a 'uses two hands' bit to it. I don't disagree with you in principle with Chariots not being able to march being odd, just clarifying the official main rulebook rules. "It has the same Toughness and as a Bonebreaker and an extra wound, but because monsters and chariots have separate profiles from their riders, I don't think it would be able to stop the Warlord from focusing its attacks on the Beastlord and killing him first." Yep, Fellblade Skaven Bonebreaker lord should smoke a Primeval Club chariot mounted Beastlord unfortunately. Bonebreaker RAW lets you have a 4 wound Skaven Warlord which given the negative potential Fellblade effects is pretty solid. I see in your Beastmen book 'The Black Maul' is pretty much your version of the Primeval Club. Pretty cool and I think the points are about right and interesting angle with the Fear/Terror bit. I think what you did with the Strength works (for everything).
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 15, 2022 10:03:34 GMT
Bonebreaker RAW lets you have a 4 wound Skaven Warlord which given the negative potential Fellblade effects is pretty solid. I don't understand how this can be the case - the Bonebreaker is treated as a Monstrous Mount, so its 4 wounds are a separate wound total to the Warlord's own 3 wounds. Surely the damage inflicted by the Fellblade would only wound the Warlord carrying it, in which case it would still only take 3 wounds from it to kill him, with the Bonebreaker left alive and unharmed? I see in your Beastmen book 'The Black Maul' is pretty much your version of the Primeval Club. Pretty cool and I think the points are about right and interesting angle with the Fear/Terror bit. I think what you did with the Strength works (for everything). Yes, The Black Maul was essentially the 6th Edition predecessor to the Primeval Club, and you could say that, in lore, they are one and the same. I wanted to include Fear and Terror in it because the lore gave it such a dark reputation for terrifying the foes of the Beastmen, it would be a failure of rules-writing to not give it the ability to do so in the rules. For a long while I wondered why so many reviews pooh-poohed the Primeval Club, and it was only a week or so ago that I noticed the big loophole of the 7th Edition Primeval Club definition (the Strength bonus only applying to wound), and I'm leased to see I managed to circumvent that with the Black Maul by stating that the Strength bonus applies throughout the combat phase, so will apply an armour save penalty to match. I'd like to think it isn't too cheap for what it does, given that 75 points places a severe limit on what other Magic Items can be taken alongside it.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 15, 2022 11:55:47 GMT
Bonebreaker RAW lets you have a 4 wound Skaven Warlord which given the negative potential Fellblade effects is pretty solid. I don't understand how this can be the case - the Bonebreaker is treated as a Monstrous Mount, so its 4 wounds are a separate wound total to the Warlord's own 3 wounds. Surely the damage inflicted by the Fellblade would only wound the Warlord carrying it, in which case it would still only take 3 wounds from it to kill him, with the Bonebreaker left alive and unharmed? I see in your Beastmen book 'The Black Maul' is pretty much your version of the Primeval Club. Pretty cool and I think the points are about right and interesting angle with the Fear/Terror bit. I think what you did with the Strength works (for everything). Yes, The Black Maul was essentially the 6th Edition predecessor to the Primeval Club, and you could say that, in lore, they are one and the same. I wanted to include Fear and Terror in it because the lore gave it such a dark reputation for terrifying the foes of the Beastmen, it would be a failure of rules-writing to not give it the ability to do so in the rules. For a long while I wondered why so many reviews pooh-poohed the Primeval Club, and it was only a week or so ago that I noticed the big loophole of the 7th Edition Primeval Club definition (the Strength bonus only applying to wound), and I'm leased to see I managed to circumvent that with the Black Maul by stating that the Strength bonus applies throughout the combat phase, so will apply an armour save penalty to match. I'd like to think it isn't too cheap for what it does, given that 75 points places a severe limit on what other Magic Items can be taken alongside it. Below in quotes is taken from elsewhere from a Skaven player. Bonebreaker is not a 'Monster' which is why it can still be run in skaven units and not forced to go separately. Makes sense as it's basically a Rat Ogre (monstrous infantry) It's like a Chaos hero (2 wounds) on a 3 wound Juggernaut or Daemonic mount, it gets the extra wound. "The Character riding a Bonebreaker is counted as Monstrous Cavalry, as the Bonebreaker is a Monstrous Beast (Page 105 in the "Characters" chapter, "Monstrous Cavalry Mount" section). So you use the mounts movement, the highest toughness and wounds (The Bonebreakers) and the saves of the rider (+1 armour from the mount bonus). The rules for Monstrous Cavalry are on page 83 of the main rulebook in the "Troop Types" chapter." I'll try your rules for the 'Primeval Club' / Black Maul. I think they are fair given the fear/terror buff for the points.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 15, 2022 13:12:22 GMT
Below in quotes is taken from elsewhere from a Skaven player. Bonebreaker is not a 'Monster' which is why it can still be run in skaven units and not forced to go separately. Makes sense as it's basically a Rat Ogre (monstrous infantry) It's like a Chaos hero (2 wounds) on a 3 wound Juggernaut or Daemonic mount, it gets the extra wound. "The Character riding a Bonebreaker is counted as Monstrous Cavalry, as the Bonebreaker is a Monstrous Beast (Page 105 in the "Characters" chapter, "Monstrous Cavalry Mount" section). So you use the mounts movement, the highest toughness and wounds (The Bonebreakers) and the saves of the rider (+1 armour from the mount bonus). The rules for Monstrous Cavalry are on page 83 of the main rulebook in the "Troop Types" chapter." OK, I get it now. The 7th Edition book describes the Bonebreaker as a Monstrous Mount, which gave me the impression it was still a monster. Another reason for me to get my 8th Edition Skaven book done eventually
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 15, 2022 15:43:39 GMT
Well that would certainly be nice for both of us, 7th Skaven is good and an 8th would only need to sort magic items and magic really and tweak a few units.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 26, 2022 3:15:11 GMT
I was just thinking with the Beastmen Crown of Horns item granting stubborn for 75 points...... imagine if it also granted +1 leadership. I could actually see it being taken and would be the only way to get a leadership 10 Beastlord.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Sept 8, 2023 18:56:14 GMT
Appart form the banner of leadership.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Sept 13, 2023 5:42:10 GMT
Appart form the banner of leadership. The Standard of Discipline (think this is what you're referring to) doesn't really boost the leadership of the Beastlord directly though but I know what you mean and use it a fair bit for precisely that reason 😀 as 'effectively' gives the leadership bump Beastmen crave. He cannot leave the unit though or 'loses' his Leadership boost which wouldn't be the case if Crown of Horns boosted it.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Sept 17, 2023 6:50:30 GMT
Appart form the banner of leadership. The Standard of Discipline (think this is what you're referring to) doesn't really boost the leadership of the Beastlord directly though but I know what you mean and use it a fair bit for precisely that reason 😀 as 'effectively' gives the leadership bump Beastmen crave. He cannot leave the unit though or 'loses' his Leadership boost which wouldn't be the case if Crown of Horns boosted it. It would be 100pts and not bad at that price but would mean a naked beastord with a 4+ armour save ... and he would be easy meat. Beastlord need tools shame he can't take chaos armour lol
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