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Post by mottdon on Mar 13, 2021 12:31:27 GMT
One canon costs less than a Giant. Two canons cost more. Am I missing something? And you're right, Horace, after turn 3 or so, they become virtually useless because everything is in CC at that point. So you just sunk a quarter of 1K points into 2-3 shots, that have a significant chance of malfunctioning and may or may not kill the big nasty(s) that are intended to wreck face and crush your army's backbone.
People who don't like them do so because they mess with their point-click-and-crush strategy, not because they're too strong. I don't know how many opponents of mine have started drooling over the juicy target when I place it/them on the table.
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 13, 2021 14:34:33 GMT
One canon costs less than a Giant. Two canons cost more. Am I missing something? And you're right, Horace, after turn 3 or so, they become virtually useless because everything is in CC at that point. So you just sunk a quarter of 1K points into 2-3 shots, that have a significant chance of malfunctioning and may or may not kill the big nasty(s) that are intended to wreck face and crush your army's backbone. People who don't like them do so because they mess with their point-click-and-crush strategy, not because they're too strong. I don't know how many opponents of mine have started drooling over the juicy target when I place it/them on the table. I think you miss all the monsters that don’t se play because of cannons. You are just comparing with the best ones that see play. There are a lot of character mounts and normal ones without ward saves that is just unplayable because of them. That’s my main problem. There are great models never played. Some would be fixed with changing the ridden monster rule too(combined profile). I have had my fair share of turn one/two game over. Even though it is like 1/10 chance, to give that to my opponent makes I rather not play a tree lord ancient and go for other choices. same goes for my forest dragon. If I am up against dwarfs, skaven I will not play it as it will determine the whole game. You are also missing the strategic point of the cannons. Because of their strength they give huge board control. Even though they miss they still pay back in giving you the choice of where units goes on the field and help out picking battles on who fights who. Who would not pay 250p if it would allow you to pick all battles? I would rather see cheaper and more random cannons. But then some armies would also need compensation like empire and maybe dwarfs. But yes it’s the mounted chariot cannons I see as the main problem.
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Post by Mr Blank on Mar 13, 2021 16:23:56 GMT
Aren't High Elves, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos considered the best armies despite lack of cannons? I think it's just the frustration of the odd times your big fancy model gets killed before it has the chance to do anything that makes people hate them, i wouldn't consider them overpowered. Apart from things that need points addition/reductions the only things in 8th edition i feel are actually unfair is the zombie conga line, BOTWD and the chaos dwarf magic item chalice of blood and darkness (which might just be because it screwed me over so badly the 1 time i played against it!)
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Post by delflover5000 on Mar 13, 2021 18:12:56 GMT
I think cannons get the brunt of the complaints because monsters in generally can so often be underwhelming. If they aren't T6 or have a ward/regen then they'll die to pretty much anything. Most are S5 T5 with maybe a 4+ save which basically forces them to only fight S3 T3 infantry, and even then they need a good thunderstomp to offset ranks/banner. Low I doesn't help, especially with not striking first on the charge anymore as a weak monster may just be dead before it even gets to attack. A good counterpoint to this though is that they're supposed to be support units rather solo powerhouses, but as already mentioned a lot of people go for a point and click approach to the game.
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Post by Horace on Mar 13, 2021 22:36:31 GMT
One canon costs less than a Giant. Two canons cost more. Am I missing something? And you're right, Horace, after turn 3 or so, they become virtually useless because everything is in CC at that point. So you just sunk a quarter of 1K points into 2-3 shots, that have a significant chance of malfunctioning and may or may not kill the big nasty(s) that are intended to wreck face and crush your army's backbone. People who don't like them do so because they mess with their point-click-and-crush strategy, not because they're too strong. I don't know how many opponents of mine have started drooling over the juicy target when I place it/them on the table. I think you miss all the monsters that don’t se play because of cannons. You are just comparing with the best ones that see play. There are a lot of character mounts and normal ones without ward saves that is just unplayable because of them. That’s my main problem. There are great models never played. Some would be fixed with changing the ridden monster rule too(combined profile). I have had my fair share of turn one/two game over. Even though it is like 1/10 chance, to give that to my opponent makes I rather not play a tree lord ancient and go for other choices. same goes for my forest dragon. If I am up against dwarfs, skaven I will not play it as it will determine the whole game. You are also missing the strategic point of the cannons. Because of their strength they give huge board control. Even though they miss they still pay back in giving you the choice of where units goes on the field and help out picking battles on who fights who. Who would not pay 250p if it would allow you to pick all battles? I would rather see cheaper and more random cannons. But then some armies would also need compensation like empire and maybe dwarfs. But yes it’s the mounted chariot cannons I see as the main problem. Curious which monsters are unplayable? Also, cannons do not allow you to pick all battles. That is simply untrue. Like I said, if you drop a cannon-able monster against several cannons, you have to protect the model for a turn or 2. Same thing goes for various different models which you would also protect - cavalry vs fanatics etc. You need to play accordingly. It doesn't make the model broken
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 13, 2021 22:51:57 GMT
Quite so. As I have argued from the start of 8th edition, there is only one change needed: a return to 6/7th edition rules, which randomised template attacks against ridden monsters.
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Post by vulcan on Mar 14, 2021 3:21:47 GMT
One canon costs less than a Giant. Two canons cost more. Am I missing something? And you're right, Horace, after turn 3 or so, they become virtually useless because everything is in CC at that point. So you just sunk a quarter of 1K points into 2-3 shots, that have a significant chance of malfunctioning and may or may not kill the big nasty(s) that are intended to wreck face and crush your army's backbone. People who don't like them do so because they mess with their point-click-and-crush strategy, not because they're too strong. I don't know how many opponents of mine have started drooling over the juicy target when I place it/them on the table. Cannon are way more point-and-click than monsters. Point, click, roll the dice, and monster-be-gone. Monster? Pick the wrong unit to engage and it's pinned down and ground away. Hardly point-and-click. And just getting into combat without being shot of the board is a challenge even without dealing with between two and six cannon shots per round...
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Post by sedge on Mar 14, 2021 18:58:01 GMT
My main issue with cannons (which I've both played with as Dwarves and faced with my various other armies) is their method of hitting compared to equivalent artillery, such as bolt throwers. Bolt throwers are notoriously hard to hit with, as they're often shooting stuff the opposite side of the board, and are hindered by the crew's (generally) poor ballistic skill. Cannons do not take the ballistic skill of their crew into account, and there's nothing to reflect the fact they may have shot a bit to the left, or perhaps a bit to the right of their target. I don't have a "solution" for that, as I like the whole "does it bounce / how far" aspect of cannons, but their method of shooting doesn't seem quite right. I do think the effect of cannons is often overstated, and when I've faced a trio of Skaven big nasties careening towards my Dawi line, I'm grateful for what they offer. But on the flip side I do feel they overly discourage the usage of monsters, especially ridden ones. And I am a big fan of monsters. Also, I think everything that can be said on cannons in 8th has been  No-one's changing their minds on it now.
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Post by Horace on Mar 14, 2021 19:38:47 GMT
My main issue with cannons (which I've both played with as Dwarves and faced with my various other armies) is their method of hitting compared to equivalent artillery, such as bolt throwers. Bolt throwers are notoriously hard to hit with, as they're often shooting stuff the opposite side of the board, and are hindered by the crew's (generally) poor ballistic skill. Cannons do not take the ballistic skill of their crew into account, and there's nothing to reflect the fact they may have shot a bit to the left, or perhaps a bit to the right of their target. I don't have a "solution" for that, as I like the whole "does it bounce / how far" aspect of cannons, but their method of shooting doesn't seem quite right. I do think the effect of cannons is often overstated, and when I've faced a trio of Skaven big nasties careening towards my Dawi line, I'm grateful for what they offer. But on the flip side I do feel they overly discourage the usage of monsters, especially ridden ones. And I am a big fan of monsters. Also, I think everything that can be said on cannons in 8th has been  No-one's changing their minds on it now. I completely agree. I think rolling to hit or fvon's suggestion of not hitting both rider and mount are both things I would like to have seen changed for a 9th (or both)
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Post by KevinC on Mar 14, 2021 19:47:45 GMT
Quite so. As I have argued from the start of 8th edition, there is only one change needed: a return to 6/7th edition rules, which randomised template attacks against ridden monsters. ----------This is my main issue with cannons. Why did they change this?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 14, 2021 21:26:33 GMT
Because GW moves in mysterious ways...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 14, 2021 21:31:22 GMT
To add: the overlap of the 8th edition BRB and the 7th edition Empire AB was the only time (in my experience) that the Empire could be considered a 1st tier Army. And that would have been achieved even without dispensing with randomising hits on ridden monsters.
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 14, 2021 21:50:39 GMT
What I find the most annoying about cannons, is that the way they fire is the same as when you couldn't pre-measure... So they're too easy to use 😂
Randomised hits between the riders is a house rule I use in my games 👍
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 14, 2021 21:54:29 GMT
Be honest: the most annoying thing you find about cannons is that they can actually kill stuff, with or without pre-measuring.
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Post by gorfung on Mar 14, 2021 22:09:09 GMT
if you ever watch MWG Cullen, hes played like 60 games without a cannon killing anything.... lol
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