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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 1:27:47 GMT
Bit of an odd request here as I am the VC player, but I have been very successful in my group of players (Empire, Dwarves, and High Elves) but I am also the only one to play a previous edition so I was much further ahead on the learning curve than the new players. With that said, I’ve tried to help my players and offer ideas to them for what to try but it seems odd for me to tell them what to do against me and if they do that, then I usually am able to tell early on and counter their attempts (my competitive nature won’t let me make it easy on them). Our normal games are 2400 points, random scenarios, and always Standard time rules. I change up my army lists often and will tweak things for the armies that I am playing but here are some of my usual things they can expect. Each category has some combination of the following
Lords/Heroes: Blender lord vampire (usually mounted in black Knight bus) Heinrich Kemler or Manfred the Acolyte (gotta have a lore master!) Wight King BSB (either in Grave guard of black knights with blender lord) Low level necromancer to carry dispel scroll/extra invocation
Core: (Nearly identical every game) 30 Crypt ghouls with champion 4x units of 5 dire wolves 40 zombies with musician and banner (Did just finish 45 skeletons so have tried this unit with kemler and screaming banner)
Special: Always either Black Knights or Grave Guard (with lord, BSB, and banner of barrows) Usually 6-8 vargheists or crypt horrors Occasionally bat swarms, fell bats, corpse cart, hexwraiths.
Rare: Either terrorgeist, Mortis engine, or black coach (and boy do they hate all 3 of them!)
I know without a specific list it’s tough to say how to defend against an army but I can honestly say I’ve never had the same list twice in the games I’ve played. The most consistent thing is 3 casters (almost always vampires with invocation for each), core is usually the same, and can always count on one of the 3 rare choices (unless I’m feeling particularly mean and bring 2 of the 3). I’m going to show them this thread and the answers you guys give to hopefully give them some more ideas. I really do think that it’s just experience and a better grasp of the rules than most and in time it will all even out but I’m sure it is discouraging at times for them. Thanks guys and happy gaming.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jan 7, 2021 2:32:54 GMT
this is not quite the answer you are looking for but I would consider making the points uneven. so take 2300pts against their lists, if you still beat them use 2200. continue until you reach the point level where your superior grasp of rules balances out with their advantage in numbers. this also means you don't have to deliberately go easy on them and in fact honing your skills with a handicap might turn you into an even leaner, meaner fighting machine.
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Post by strutsagget on Jan 7, 2021 8:55:43 GMT
I would go for handicap system too. -100p for every consecutive win.
Also for everyones learning I strongly recommend talking about the game on what could have been done better after the game. This can be an open discussion but when the game is fresh in mind. At least it always helps me as it’s hard to get a grasp of your own army and even harder of all opponents armies.
Take a photo of deployment with your mobile. You can share it here if you wish. And we can discuss it. Games can be lost in deployment if up against a good player and really needs to be thought out. You need to have a plan.
Also I would recommend using the lower power units that sits on the shelf and maybe skip the blender lord.
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Post by strutsagget on Jan 7, 2021 9:18:52 GMT
Also I would recommend using the same list multiple times.
It’s very hard for a newer players to face a new lists.
Thats why of the reason some tournament players favors bringing new list if possible, not the best list everyone knows how to play against.
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Post by sedge on Jan 7, 2021 10:50:28 GMT
Do your opponents have the full range of Dwarf / Empire / High Elf models to choose from? Or are their collections limited? Often newer players have a collection based around the shiny cool looking models that got them into the army and (if they started post-AoS) what's readily available - those don't always tally with what's strong. It can also prevent them changing their army around, so if you always know more or less what they're going to bring, it's much easier to prepare.
On general outlook, I'd say you shouldn't think of it as "going easy on them" rather "ramping up the challenge for yourself", which pushes you to improve. Having a points handicap is a good way of doing that. So is challenging yourself to make the crappy VC units work. You can beat them with a Blender Vampire Lord / Black Knight Bus, but can you still win with a Master Necromancer on Abyssal Terror? Or Tomb Banshee heroes, Grave Guard with sword/board, Blood Knights, Strigoi Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheists?
Another way of approaching it is to swap armies. You get a much, much better understanding of an army by playing it yourself. Do they have copies of the Vampire Counts army book? If not, they really need it.
A fun challenge for yourself (if current circumstances allow it) would be to have all three gang up on you in a 3 vs 1 battle, perhaps 2,000 points for each of them, vs 4,000 for you. It'll get them working together / sharing ideas on how to take down your army.
I 100% echo Strut's suggestion of discussing the game right after, so your opponents get a better understanding of where things went wrong (or right) and how they might do things differently next time.
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Post by knoffles on Jan 7, 2021 11:53:12 GMT
I don’t know how long your opponents have been playing (or using their armies) so my first comment is quite generic and more aimed at, if they are pretty new to the game. Although it’s fun to chop and change lists, using the same one with perhaps the odd tweak here and there over several games will mean they get to know the list inside out and although the list may become predictable if you are playing the same opponents repeatedly, will mean you also get much more proficient at using it.
I’ve had some reasonable success (and horrific defeats 😂) with my dwarves so it’s the one I feel I’m most able to comment on. As such I’ve put below a fairly standard dwarf all comers list (I don’t tailor). It’s pretty similar to what I have run as a more competitive list (though nowadays we tend to take more fluffy choices). We also tend to play 2500 and I like to field a single organ gun and a block of Irondrakes instead of a second organ gun. I think this it’s should have a good number of tools to deal with threats. I’ll talk through why I’ve taken options but your dwarf player may already know all of it. Again I don’t know how new or not to the game he or she may be so it’s not meant to be condescending if it covers obvious stuff.
There is an extensive dwarf tactica article in the tactics section of this forum that is well worth a read. It’s a compilation of many articles from across the web.
Characters I tend to run all dwarf characters as support. The two runesmiths provide each combat block with armour piercing and have dispel runes to assist against your magic. They are equipped as cheaply as possible with just a 2+ armour (and normal parry). The General will go in the hammerers and the other one in the Longbeards.
The BSB will also go in the Longbeards as he will give some extra punch with his GW. The rune of iron also helps his survivability due to the extra wound. Hammerers are rightly feared in combat and I’ve found most opponents try to avoid them, hence I tend to always put any combat characters in the weaker dwarf units.
The two engineers are there purely to buff the organ guns. They have a 3+ armour and the pistol gives them an additional attack (it helps when using them as bodyguards for the warmachines).
Troops A couple of units of quarrellers are essential for chaff removal duty (looking at the dogs!). The range is what gives them the edge in that task over thunderers. I put GWs on them but shields are not a bad option either, especially as that synergies well with stand and shoot reactions, combined with them sitting either side of the hammerers unit to be in the stubborn bubble.
In the list below I put shieldbeards, as they get the runic banner so can also be given stubborn (and are also cheaper than GW longbeards). They also get immune to psych, an added bonus vs undead but not why I chose them. You could easily swop them for GW warriors as that would give more bodies in the unit. There is an article in the Dwarf tactica section that compares (mathshammers) our core choices.
The hammerers are just great. Everyone knows it. I love giving them the stubborn banner (even though they are stubborn already) as then they anchor the line, giving it to any other unit that can’t get it themselves (quarrellers).
Warmachines The cannon is there to primarily take out things like the big items that would be in the rare slot or corpse cart. The grudge thrower can be used for the same thing, though has more versatility and is good for hordes/bigger units (ghouls!). The two organ guns are there for thinning out ranks. I’d use them first against anything that could threaten them (vargiests, black knights, dogs etc) before then turning their attention to ghouls. They’ll normally hit on a 2+ at short range and 3+ at long. Always re-roll a 2 on an artillery dice (unless the other one was a misfire of course!). Your gyros are unit killers. March them up (dropping bombs as they move over the units into the backfield). Then just use them to steamgun the units repeatedly. Also use them to bait/redirect if needed. Don’t be afraid to also use them to charge it and try and character assassinate the necromancer (though I’d only do that if he was the only wizard left alive so force crumble tests).
Dwarf 2400 Dwarfs
Thane: Battle Standard; great weapon; Master Rune of Gromril; Rune of Iron 146
Runesmith: shield; Rune of Stone; Rune of Spellbreaking 93
Runesmith: (General); shield; Rune of Stone; Rune of Spellbreaking; Rune of the Furnace 98
Master Engineer: Dwarf pistol; Rune of Stone 81
Master Engineer: Dwarf pistol; Rune of Stone 81
10 Quarrellers: great weapons 140
10 Quarrellers: great weapons 140
23 Longbeards: Old Guard; musician; standard bearer (Rune of Stoicism); shields 364
Gyrocopter 80
Gyrocopter 80
Cannon: Rune of Forging 145
Grudge Thrower: Rune of Penetrating; Rune of Accuracy 145
29 Hammerers: Keeper of the Gate; musician; standard bearer (Master Rune of Groth One-Eye) 511
Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy 145
Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Burning 150
2,399 points
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Post by knoffles on Jan 7, 2021 11:58:11 GMT
Further to sedge’s comments, have the 4 of you done a 4 player triumph & treachery game? That would be a fun way to really engage them all and is one of the most entertaining games you can have.
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Post by livewaaaaagh on Jan 7, 2021 14:46:05 GMT
I mean this with 0 disrespect, because I'll also field strong armies vs my friends. But I do so against friends that are knowledgeable. So if the problem you state is true, and you always beat them and then you say "I field a blender lord" vs new players. Then.....
So I echo what Sedge said, stop bringing top tier lists vs newer players until they get the hang of it. Drop the blender lord in bus knight / GW Grave Guard, and try thematic lists, loreful lists, just for fun lists and have fun.
Again, I don't mean it in a mean way at all, but more so than changing their lists, which defnitely could help, I think you need to change yours.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 16:19:45 GMT
I mean this with 0 disrespect, because I'll also field strong armies vs my friends. But I do so against friends that are knowledgeable. So if the problem you state is true, and you always beat them and then you say "I field a blender lord" vs new players. Then..... So I echo what Sedge said, stop bringing top tier lists vs newer players until they get the hang of it. Drop the blender lord in bus knight / GW Grave Guard, and try thematic lists, loreful lists, just for fun lists and have fun. Again, I don't mean it in a mean way at all, but more so than changing their lists, which defnitely could help, I think you need to change yours. I think you are 100% correct and I completely understand what you are saying. I do tend to become a bit of a “power gamer/min-maxer” when I get really into games. Definitely more so than my other players, so I am part of the problem. This was also part of the reason that I brought up my (hyper)competitive nature and why I struggle to pull punches. I’ve tried what you have suggested to an extent, but it’s more so from not taking a rare choice instead of adjusting the lords/heroes. There were some good suggestions for what I can do also that I really liked and will try some of those options as well as try and drop the blender lord. Thanks for your input and the tactful way of delivering it so my ego wasn’t too badly bruised. 👍
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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 16:51:26 GMT
Do your opponents have the full range of Dwarf / Empire / High Elf models to choose from? Or are their collections limited? Often newer players have a collection based around the shiny cool looking models that got them into the army and (if they started post-AoS) what's readily available - those don't always tally with what's strong. It can also prevent them changing their army around, so if you always know more or less what they're going to bring, it's much easier to prepare. On general outlook, I'd say you shouldn't think of it as "going easy on them" rather "ramping up the challenge for yourself", which pushes you to improve. Having a points handicap is a good way of doing that. So is challenging yourself to make the crappy VC units work. You can beat them with a Blender Vampire Lord / Black Knight Bus, but can you still win with a Master Necromancer on Abyssal Terror? Or Tomb Banshee heroes, Grave Guard with sword/board, Blood Knights, Strigoi Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheists? Another way of approaching it is to swap armies. You get a much, much better understanding of an army by playing it yourself. Do they have copies of the Vampire Counts army book? If not, they really need it. A fun challenge for yourself (if current circumstances allow it) would be to have all three gang up on you in a 3 vs 1 battle, perhaps 2,000 points for each of them, vs 4,000 for you. It'll get them working together / sharing ideas on how to take down your army. I 100% echo Strut's suggestion of discussing the game right after, so your opponents get a better understanding of where things went wrong (or right) and how they might do things differently next time. We all just started with 8th edition in late October but I have 2 3D printers that we have been using to build armies since the cost of starting from scratch in warhammer is something that none of us were willing to do. Given how new it is and the amount of people that need things for their armies, it here are some limitations of models but since we are all friends/family, we have no issues with using proxy models and labeling a dry erase card directly behind the unit for what it is and how many there are (we’re never going to play in any official GW tournaments and is unlikely to play against anyone but each other so we aren’t too worried about being “official”). So given that, pretty much anything in the books are available to use. I also like the idea of doing a points handicap of -100 for each consecutive win. I think that will be good to try out. I do worry that it may give me an advantage in a campaign we are looking to start up soon where uneven battles will be quite common. Having that practice without anyone else getting the practice could be pretty valuable, but that may be a problem for another day. As of now, I just want to make sure that I don’t dissuade these guys from playing so I think this idea is still great. We have done 2v2 a couple times early on but not in the last 2 months. Are there different rules for triumph and treachery? We played it as a team of these 2 armies vs a team of those 2 armies. Side one went at the same time and shared power/dispel dice, then side 2 would go. We did try changing armies with High Elves and VC (him and I have played the most games to this point) and it ended up being more frustrating for him because HE won by a very decisive margin and quite quickly as well. Everyone has access to digital files now of the BRB and each army book. I don’t look at other army books because I don’t want to have that be another thing that tips the scales my way, but I do read the brb often and have gotten pretty active reading on this forum (it’s all YOUR fault for giving me too much insight and strategy tips!!! j/k) so I know more of the nuances of the game (but they definitely have a good understanding of all the rules now too). I always give opportunities to go back to something if there was a misunderstanding or a niche rule that wasn’t known to be a thing and try to be more lenient to the players (ie. Go ahead this time but let’s double check after the game, then you see me post in the Rules board here for clarification). We also play at my house so even when I’m not playing a game I am usually watching the game and seeing what is being used and how. This probably gives me even more of an advantage that the others aren’t benefiting from as well. In about 30 games since we started, I’ve been part of or witness to all of it except for maybe 3 turns. Lastly, we do have a discussion after the game about what happened and what a turning point was, though we don’t take pictures so maybe that would help. I’ve tried asking them after the game what their strategy/goal was and I share with them what mine was. I have faith that they will be kicking my ass soon, just hopeful to shorten the learning curve for them so it’s not too frustrating early on. Thanks for your input.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 16:54:29 GMT
Also I would recommend using the same list multiple times. It’s very hard for a newer players to face a new lists. Thats why of the reason some tournament players favors bringing new list if possible, not the best list everyone knows how to play against. I can definitely try this out. I’ll make one list (I don’t even mind showing them ahead of time if they want so they can try and plan specifically for what is coming) and then shave 100 points off each victory. Good suggestions. also, we do recap after the game and discuss things that could have gone differently but never take pictures so I think we will start with that.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jan 7, 2021 17:01:23 GMT
you sound like a reasonable man, it'll all work out.
maybe your friends/family need to spend more time on this forum to even the odds...
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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 17:07:10 GMT
I don’t know how long your opponents have been playing (or using their armies) so my first comment is quite generic and more aimed at, if they are pretty new to the game. Although it’s fun to chop and change lists, using the same one with perhaps the odd tweak here and there over several games will mean they get to know the list inside out and although the list may become predictable if you are playing the same opponents repeatedly, will mean you also get much more proficient at using it. I’ve had some reasonable success (and horrific defeats 😂) with my dwarves so it’s the one I feel I’m most able to comment on. As such I’ve put below a fairly standard dwarf all comers list (I don’t tailor). It’s pretty similar to what I have run as a more competitive list (though nowadays we tend to take more fluffy choices). We also tend to play 2500 and I like to field a single organ gun and a block of Irondrakes instead of a second organ gun. I think this it’s should have a good number of tools to deal with threats. I’ll talk through why I’ve taken options but your dwarf player may already know all of it. Again I don’t know how new or not to the game he or she may be so it’s not meant to be condescending if it covers obvious stuff. There is an extensive dwarf tactica article in the tactics section of this forum that is well worth a read. It’s a compilation of many articles from across the web. Characters I tend to run all dwarf characters as support. The two runesmiths provide each combat block with armour piercing and have dispel runes to assist against your magic. They are equipped as cheaply as possible with just a 2+ armour (and normal parry). The General will go in the hammerers and the other one in the Longbeards. The BSB will also go in the Longbeards as he will give some extra punch with his GW. The rune of iron also helps his survivability due to the extra wound. Hammerers are rightly feared in combat and I’ve found most opponents try to avoid them, hence I tend to always put any combat characters in the weaker dwarf units. The two engineers are there purely to buff the organ guns. They have a 3+ armour and the pistol gives them an additional attack (it helps when using them as bodyguards for the warmachines). Troops A couple of units of quarrellers are essential for chaff removal duty (looking at the dogs!). The range is what gives them the edge in that task over thunderers. I put GWs on them but shields are not a bad option either, especially as that synergies well with stand and shoot reactions, combined with them sitting either side of the hammerers unit to be in the stubborn bubble. In the list below I put shieldbeards, as they get the runic banner so can also be given stubborn (and are also cheaper than GW longbeards). They also get immune to psych, an added bonus vs undead but not why I chose them. You could easily swop them for GW warriors as that would give more bodies in the unit. There is an article in the Dwarf tactica section that compares (mathshammers) our core choices. The hammerers are just great. Everyone knows it. I love giving them the stubborn banner (even though they are stubborn already) as then they anchor the line, giving it to any other unit that can’t get it themselves (quarrellers). Warmachines The cannon is there to primarily take out things like the big items that would be in the rare slot or corpse cart. The grudge thrower can be used for the same thing, though has more versatility and is good for hordes/bigger units (ghouls!). The two organ guns are there for thinning out ranks. I’d use them first against anything that could threaten them (vargiests, black knights, dogs etc) before then turning their attention to ghouls. They’ll normally hit on a 2+ at short range and 3+ at long. Always re-roll a 2 on an artillery dice (unless the other one was a misfire of course!). Your gyros are unit killers. March them up (dropping bombs as they move over the units into the backfield). Then just use them to steamgun the units repeatedly. Also use them to bait/redirect if needed. Don’t be afraid to also use them to charge it and try and character assassinate the necromancer (though I’d only do that if he was the only wizard left alive so force crumble tests). Dwarf 2400DwarfsThane: Battle Standard; great weapon; Master Rune of Gromril; Rune of Iron 146Runesmith: shield; Rune of Stone; Rune of Spellbreaking 93Runesmith: (General); shield; Rune of Stone; Rune of Spellbreaking; Rune of the Furnace 98Master Engineer: Dwarf pistol; Rune of Stone 81Master Engineer: Dwarf pistol; Rune of Stone 8110 Quarrellers: great weapons 14010 Quarrellers: great weapons 14023 Longbeards: Old Guard; musician; standard bearer (Rune of Stoicism); shields 364Gyrocopter 80Gyrocopter 80Cannon: Rune of Forging 145Grudge Thrower: Rune of Penetrating; Rune of Accuracy 14529 Hammerers: Keeper of the Gate; musician; standard bearer (Master Rune of Groth One-Eye) 511Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy 145Organ Gun: Rune of Accuracy; Rune of Burning 1502,399 pointsI LOVE IT! Thanks for the list. I’m going to be sending it to him immediately. I know he loves (and I hate) Grimm and he is a staple in his lists, usually deployed between 2 organ guns. He also loves his GW longbeards (2 units of 10 usually. Hopefully this gives him some different ideas to try out. Appreciate you taking the time to fill this out.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 7, 2021 17:13:21 GMT
Long and short, blenderbus will beat newbies. We all know this. Drop it and play with softer units. Learn how to win with them instead. Or pretty shortly you'll be trying to figure out how to play WFB with no opponents.
Been there, done that, it isn't fun being the one who singlehandedly destroyed a WFB community by insisting on playing hard all the time.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 7, 2021 17:16:56 GMT
Long and short, blenderbus will beat newbies. We all know this. Drop it and play with softer units. Learn how to win with them instead. Or pretty shortly you'll be trying to figure out how to play WFB with no opponents. Been there, done that, it isn't fun being the one who singlehandedly destroyed a WFB community by insisting on playing hard all the time. Definitely something I need to avoid... Thanks
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