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Post by thezildo on Jan 17, 2021 16:38:23 GMT
In response to some suggestions from a previous thread I started (‘How to beat vampire counts’ in the strategy board), I sought out to create a list that didn’t include some of the high end strategies a vampire counts army would typically use (ie. Blender lord in a black Knight bus). Does this list look like a reasonable one for all comers of beginner/novice level players? Is 6 vargeists too much? Necro and BSB would be in with grave guard. Let me know any tweaks I should make to both challenge myself but make it a reasonable list for players that are relatively new to the game to handle as well.
+ Lords +
Master Necromancer [270pts]: Lore of the Vampires, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll, BRB - Talisman of Preservation
Strigoi Ghoul King [360pts]: Aura of Dark Majesty, Beguile, Lore of the Vampires, The General of Undeath, Wizard Level 1 . Magic Items: AB - Black Periapt, BRB - Dragonbane Gem
+ Heroes +
Wight King [155pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon . Magic Items: BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Obsidian Amulet
+ Core +
Crypt Ghouls [310pts]: Champion, 30x Crypt Ghoul
Dire Wolves [40pts]: 5x Dire Wolf
Dire Wolves [40pts]: 5x Dire Wolf
Dire Wolves [40pts]: 5x Dire Wolf
Dire Wolves [40pts]: 5x Dire Wolf
Zombies [130pts]: Musician, Standard Bearer, 40x Zombie
+ Special +
Crypt Horrors [238pts]: Champion, 6x Crypt Horror
Grave Guard [296pts] . Champion . 18x Grave Guard: 18x Great Weapon . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Banner of the Barrows
Vargheists [286pts]: Champion, 6x Vargheist
+ Rare +
Black Coach [195pts]
++ Total: [2,400pts] ++
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Post by sedge on Jan 19, 2021 13:59:54 GMT
It's still a pretty good list, but it's definitely friendlier than a Black Knight bus, and should be a fun challenge (but not too challenging) to play against for someone less experienced.
How are your opponents with chaff use / frenzy baiting? Vargheists aren't too hard to deal with, and evaporate quickly when shot at, so I wouldn't consider a unit of 6 as being particularly nasty. If they get into combat, they'll shred most opponents, but anyone who has been playing for a few months should know to shoot them down / chaff them out the way.
Your opponents being Empires/Dwarves/High Elves, they should have the regular BS shooting to take down the Vargheists before they reach combat then focus on whittling down the Ghouls (or clearing out Dire Wolves if they don't have enough of their own chaff to handle them). Warmachines should be able to handle the Black Coach before it turns really nasty. None of the other units are large enough to be terrifying in combat, so it's then a challenge of getting the right units into the right combat.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 19, 2021 17:57:45 GMT
My guys are still figuring out how to bait a frenzied unit. I had a couple teachable moments against the HE player and he definitely has the best understanding of how to play (as well as the most experience) but seems to have some really bad luck with leadership rolls (more on that later). HE typically doesn’t bring any war machines in favor of a Phoenix, but he may have found a good strategy with using the Moranions Wayshard to handle the black coach/other high value target. As far as dealing with chaff that may be one of the issues. I typically will put the wolves in the front of the army to take some targets from the ranged troops of my opponent. Making a full unit of HE archers shoot at 5 dogs saves my vargheists and grave guard from being targeted as they make their way up. Since I posted this I managed to get 3 games in with this list. Here’s a brief recap of each.
Game 1 vs Empire: (Battle for the Pass) Lost my Necro and 10 GG to miscast turn one and was removed as a casualty. Black periapt kept me from being overworked in the magic phase (he only had a level 2 Wizard so I could still manage it pretty well). Black coach was taken out by a steam tank and crypt horrors/vargheists were targeted by cannons round 2 and on. 4 vargheists made it to the back of the empire lines and removed a cannon and engineer before getting a rear charge on his unit of knightly order(?) cavalry. Ghoul king beat his general in that cavalry unit in a challenge. Zombies and crypt horrors were engaged with a massive unit of halberdiers for 2 turns, luminark was largely ineffective mainly due to black periapt’s saved dice. Game had to be ended early due to time limits but was pretty close. I may have been down as the crypt ghouls, wolves, black coach, necro and most GG were wiped out.
Game 2 vs HE: (Blood and Glory) Black coach was ambushed by Annointed and spearman with Moranions Wayshard and wiped immediately due to some dumb play by me. Wolves distracted a unit of sea guard and reavers so vargheists can make way up the flank using cover. Crypt horrors engage with Phoenix guard and stalemate for a couple turns, crypt ghouls handle the reavers, spearman wipe out zombies and 1 wolves unit in 2 turns but are essentially out of the game due position. A lone wolf remains after sea guard shot at them and the wolf charges from close range to keep from standing and shooting, vargheists make a long charge to hit the flank of sea guard on turn 3, sea guard lose combat horribly, fail break test, flee and are caught, wiping out general and a banner (along with the banner from the reavers) to equal the break point and end the game.
Game 3 vs HE: (Meeting Engagement) HE switches out a second wizard (level 2) for a BSB to help with leadership rolls. HE unit of sea guard and archmage must be deployed as reinforcements. I go firs, getting 2 rounds of magic phase without HEs having a wizard on the table and with Black Periapt to help turn 2. Black coach is caught out of position and quickly slaughtered by Phoenix guard. Zombie stall an ambushing unit of spearman. Reavers flee from a GG charge, and fail 2 attempts to reform resulting in fleeing off of the table. Fire Phoenix marches through crypt ghouls for a few casualties. Phoenix guard and spearman are off on one side of the table while everything else happens on the other side. Sea guard come on the table and shoot at vargheists, removing a few. Vargheists are able to get to the far flank of the sea guard with summoned zombies on the opposite side (meaning Flank/rear charge is unavoidable at this point). Spearman finally get back into combat with a charge on the crypt ghouls/ghoul king. Sea guard attempt to March out of forward arc of vargheists/zombies and fail leadership test twice. Resulting in the HE player calling the game off as he was pinched and certainly going to be crushed by vargheists again.
I will say that it was unfortunate that his mage was out of the game for my first 2 magic phases and made a massive impact. While the Wayshard was useful in getting rid of the coach both times, it left his spearmen way out of the battle field and away from the action. Phoenix guard were pulled away in the second game as well. His use of the Phoenix (frost game 1, fire game 2) was inefficient looking back at it. Otherwise, I don’t think he made any real mistakes aside from crappy luck on leadership rolls. I think he did well and had the leadership rolls done better I think it would have been much closer. I guess that’s the random aspect of the game, but it seems to break bad for him often even though he knows what he’s doing and plays a pretty decent game IMO.
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Post by sedge on Jan 19, 2021 22:27:32 GMT
Those games sound promising, and closer, even if you didn't lose. I do find that playing until the end is worth doing, even if you look to be in a terrible situation. I've seen so many "forgone conclusion" games swing completely the other way, often when a Lvl 4 miscasts and gets sucked into the warp. For Vampire Counts in particular, that can be fatal. It's also a good opportunity to learn manoeuvring, if you're trying to keep the losing margin down, evading threats with your remaining units until turn 6 ends.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 20, 2021 1:01:04 GMT
Frustration was more the reasoning for calling game 3. He has lots of frustration when things break bad for him because the track record is so poor for him. And it always seems to be leadership rolls that get him, wether break tests, panic tests, or in this case, a March test. I feel bad for the guy because so often, it doesn’t seem to me like he did anything wrong. As is typical with HEs, he lands about 90% of his hits but then wounds on less than half of those, no matter the roll needed to do so. He says that he uses all his luck when it’s not important. An odd feeling seeing it time and time again. Yes I want to win, but damn this guy needs a break to go his way really badly vs VC. He does very well against other armies in our group (Dwarves and Empire) but can’t seem to get over the hump against the bad boys of the undead. It doesn’t help his morale that he has found articles/forums online that say HE should crush VC. I find that hand to believe myself as I think 8th edition has done a good job of balancing most armies out, though I understand some armies are better suited against certain ones, but HE don’t seem to be particularly weak again VC IMO. Anyone else have input on that? What do you guys see in your groups. Is there any glaring hole when any of these 4 armies go against each other; VC, HE, Empire, Dwarves?
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Post by TheRealGIB on Jan 20, 2021 21:24:48 GMT
I do think that you have a decent spectrum of power in all four of those factions, with Dwarfs probably lagging behind a bit, but not by much. HE and Empire lists can get real nasty, and the Dwarf VC matchup is not that really that bad as long as target priority is played well by the short legged ones. I think it would be helpful if we could see the lists, or at least the units that the other players are running, we may be able to point out any of the glaring holes you mentioned. As has been mentioned here and in the strategy board, playing at a points deficit is one option that I highly encourage, as it gives new players a growth measurement as well as a more fair playing experience. If they end up beating you when you are down 300 points, then just move the bar up and only go down 200, and so forth, giving them some tangible progress on their generalship.
Another thing I like to do with newer players is have them explain their moves. Because Warhammer fantasy is such an inherently punishing game in the deployment and movement phase, having new players explain their thought process on why they are doing things can often help them see the flaw in their plan before they waste 2 hours fighting an uphill battle because of bad early choices. I find this method to work better than an after action discussion on the game because it lets them see their other options in real time. This sort of almost Socratic "Can you explain your thoughts on why you are stacking those units like that?" question can very quickly lead to new players getting the hang of deployment and movement, which are some of the most important fundamentals of our gloriously clunky regiment based tabletop game.
Please let us know how your next gaming session goes, I am always excited to hear new players experiences as they get more and more involved in the game!
V/R, The Real GIB
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Post by thezildo on Jan 21, 2021 0:00:23 GMT
Thanks for the insight GIB. We 3D print and use proxies for nearly everything so in most cases, nothing is really unavailable. When we play this weekend I will have both armies (or 3/4 if we try our first t&t game).
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Post by delflover5000 on Jan 21, 2021 0:02:56 GMT
One idea may be to reduce the amount of chaff you use for now, hard with Vampire Counts admittedly. Redirection/ general messing with your opponents movement is usually the way more knowledgeable players get a tactical edge on newer ones, it can also be the most frustrating thing for new players when their important units are held up by that one stupid dog that refused to die. Also with less distractions on the field they can learn how to correctly match up against your real threats, after a while just slowly turn up the difficulty. The usual HE tools should perform fine in the match up tbh, book of hoeth in particular to control the magic phase. Without terrorgheists I struggle to see how you'd effectively deal with the frost phoenix, crypt ghouls/horrors maybe the only unit I might try avoid with it because of poison. I think those 4 factions line up well against each other, each with a slightly favourable/unfavourable/even match. If dice rolls are a consistent problem then the solution is simple, buy new dice and put the old evil dice in the bad dice box
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